Yeh, it really is NASCAR!
- Thread starter jumpinjoe
- Start date
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
That's a fact Hans, Ford and/or Chevy couldn't beat the hemi, nor could they build their own at the time due to patent infringements. But then neither can we say it was an even playing field since racing the hemi against any other block/head design was much like racing a thoroughbred against a plow horse. No matter how good the plow horse and/or either jockey might be, the thoroughbred is going to win.
More like a 'given' than a real 'race'.
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Another thought just crossed my mind in this vein is that not only could Ford and Chevy not beat the hemi's, neither could the other Mopar teams who could not afford to run the hemi's nor had factory backing. In fact, it's pretty much accepted the only teams who ran the hemi effectively were the Plymouth/Dodge teams who were factory backed and provided factory parts, pieces and R&D for those hemi's.Here's a pretty good read on just how secretive Mopar was regarding entry of the first hemi's and all the R&D that went into them. As long as hemi's were allowed to race, it was almost like making all others race with one cylinder missing (not really 'missing' .... I mean not firing!!!) LOL!
Inside Chrysler: the 426 Hemi tears up NASCAR in 1964
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
I just remembered another old adage regarding racing in general. I think it was Don Garlits who said: "Speed is just a matter of money (or dollars?)" ................... And as an aside, I just read a few days ago where he just turned 92 years old!!!
Long live the king ........... Big Daddy Don Garlits and his 'Swamp Rat'!!!
Long live the king ........... Big Daddy Don Garlits and his 'Swamp Rat'!!!
HansGruber
Ronin
Absolutely.
Here's a pretty good read on just how secretive Mopar was regarding entry of the first hemi's and all the R&D that went into them. As long as hemi's were allowed to race, it was almost like making all others race with one cylinder missing (not really 'missing' .... I mean not firing!!!) LOL!
Inside Chrysler: the 426 Hemi tears up NASCAR in 1964
www.allpar.com
They built a better engine, built strictly within NASCAR’s rules, that nobody could beat.
American inge(freaking)nuity , right there.
And when they ruled the roost, all the other teams whined and cried…and you couldn’t use a hemi anymore.
And MOPAR gave them the middle finger, took their bat & ball and went home.
And NASCAR has been nothing but p(kitty)ies ever since.
Here is a little information on how Ford was stopped by NASCAR from using a potent engine against the Hemi .
www.onallcylinders.com
Top 10 Engines of All-Time (#10): Ford 427 SOHC
Editor’s Note: This series counts down the Top 10 engines of all time–see how the voting was done by reading our initial post. Some picked their favorite engine based on …
www.onallcylinders.com
HansGruber
Ronin
Not really.Here is a little information on how Ford was stopped by NASCAR from using a potent engine against the Hemi .
Top 10 Engines of All-Time (#10): Ford 427 SOHC
Editor’s Note: This series counts down the Top 10 engines of all time–see how the voting was done by reading our initial post. Some picked their favorite engine based on …
They never raced it, they never put it in production cars (which they had to do, at the time).
Maybe it could’ve beat the hemi, but we’ll never know.
Pitdogg2
Professional
Same here!
There was no reason for Ford to put it in any street cars because the Hemi guys cried about it and NASCAR told Ford no. I don't know if the Ford engine was powerful enough , or reliable enough to beat the Hemi. I am just trying to show that Ford and Chevy weren't the only ones doing the crying.
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Mostly accurate as far as it goes but ..... I would argue some finer points,
1- they were not quite "built strictly within NASCAR’s rules" since they were especially built as a race ready engine and not readily available to the general/buying public in '64 as the rules called for. However, Mopar did in a sense make them available in '65 but at a cost that few of the general/buying public could hope to afford.
2- The American ingenuity was from many years earlier and not based on just building a specialty race engine. Hemi's had been made and used since the '30's in one form or another. What Mopar basically did in 1963-4 was to utilize the basic wedge block design with the 392 hemi heads, and with appropriate mods (casting/testing block after block) they built a powerhouse that no other manufacturer could build due to patent/copyright infringement issues. Mopar owned the hemi head design and name.
3- Mopar didn't give anyone the finger and go home. In fact they filed against Nascar's ruling when Nascar disqualified and disallowed the engine based on the above. Some of the factory drivers did however in a sense protest. As much as the engine was disallowed for any other reason, the business heads at NASCAR knew that spectators would soon tire of seeing the same old train of winners at race after race based on such an uneven playing field and attendance/revenue would begin to suffer. So there was a self defense mechanism involved as well as a fairness issue.
Now I can't say just how much of Nascar's decision was based on qualification, on fairness (remember the hemi teams who were fully factory backed at the time vs all others of all brands), on politics, or survival of the sport. But they all played a part.
Other than these few finer points we can agree/disagree on, I would offer that NASCAR actually started the downward spiral of real racing when they made the move from real passenger vehicles being modified to race, to race ready vehicles that bore no similarity to real passenger/stock vehicles. After all it was actually called "Stock Car" racing, it was thought at the time they should 'look' like stock cars.
You know there was a time when one of NASCAR's classes of race car was actually called 'Modified'. The moment might also be determined to have happened with the advent of COT's, fuel injections, hand made bodies/templates, aero importance and wind tunnels, or even further back with the addition of power steering and/or radial tires. Or maybe when they changed the name of class from 'Modified' and to 'Grand National'. Who can really say, it's like beauty being in the eye of the beholder ....... Nascar is what it is to the fan!!!
Wirenut
Hellcat
As much as I like the earth shaking nitro cars, I'll take the door slammers that have the drivers manually shifting their cars.
All classes from the Pro-Stock to the average sportsman class.
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Although it was never raced in Nascar, it was campaigned for awhile in NHRA. It did quite well for the time and it was an interesting concept. I think a part of it kind of going away was that America wasn't quite ready for an OHC engine at the time. Sounds to simplistic, but we aMer'cn's are sometimes funny like that.
It's kind of ironic that the only engine that might'uv, could'uv, maybe would'uv beat the hemi never raced against it. But even though that engine stood pretty tall in the drag racing arena for a good while, it's the hemi based engine design that has stood the test of time in professional drag racing. Today with technology they're building horse power in the thousands.
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Wirenut
Hellcat
KillerFord1977
SAINT
454 El Camino SS would burn the tires right out from under me if you didnt work the clutch just right with the HurstI'm almost right with you ............. but I don't want a trans brake, or an air shifter either. If the driver ain't working a clutch with his left foot and shifting gears with his right hand, he ain't drivin', he's just along for the ride !!!
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Hell, I had a 454 in a 14,000 lb motor home and it would smoke the tires off that ............... oh, wait a minute, that smoke was from the exhaust, not the tires !!! LOL!
Only partly kidding, that 454 moved the 14K lbs like it should've. I actually love the 454. I think I've mentioned before I'm a confirmed Chevy man, have been since my first car at 15. In my 75 years, 53 of it married, out of all the vehicles we've owned, only 3 were other than Chevy.
I owned an older Dodge work van for a short while when a kid, bought a used '66 4x4 Bronco on a whim just in time for hunting season to open one year, and my dear old grandma after a stroke and could no longer drive, gave her one and only new car (1959 Ford sedan) to my bride when we married in '69. A great little car with about 6 yrs of actual use, clear plastic covers on the seats and mileage only to the grocery store and back and occasional trip to church............. Yep, one of those cars.
Unfortunately it didn't come with a radio though and my wife kept complaining she didn't have any music in her car ............. so I bought her a song book and a pitch pipe !!!
True story !!! Well the part about the radio and song book, not the smoking tires !!!
Only partly kidding, that 454 moved the 14K lbs like it should've. I actually love the 454. I think I've mentioned before I'm a confirmed Chevy man, have been since my first car at 15. In my 75 years, 53 of it married, out of all the vehicles we've owned, only 3 were other than Chevy.
I owned an older Dodge work van for a short while when a kid, bought a used '66 4x4 Bronco on a whim just in time for hunting season to open one year, and my dear old grandma after a stroke and could no longer drive, gave her one and only new car (1959 Ford sedan) to my bride when we married in '69. A great little car with about 6 yrs of actual use, clear plastic covers on the seats and mileage only to the grocery store and back and occasional trip to church............. Yep, one of those cars.
Unfortunately it didn't come with a radio though and my wife kept complaining she didn't have any music in her car ............. so I bought her a song book and a pitch pipe !!!
True story !!! Well the part about the radio and song book, not the smoking tires !!!
KillerFord1977
SAINT
Let racers race.
Get away from cloned cars.
Put a HP range limit so they are all within a few HP of each other and let them go to town… rubbin in racin..
We used to host various groups as a company to Nascar. We have to be at all the local races for work. Hosted some Air Force folks for several years. Enjoyed the folks, bot the geriatric racing . AF didnt want to pose for pics being “on the job”
Get away from cloned cars.
Put a HP range limit so they are all within a few HP of each other and let them go to town… rubbin in racin..
We used to host various groups as a company to Nascar. We have to be at all the local races for work. Hosted some Air Force folks for several years. Enjoyed the folks, bot the geriatric racing . AF didnt want to pose for pics being “on the job”
Attachments
BreakingWind
Master Class
lol...
The part I miss the most was the fact that they raced actual cars you could see on the roads, not the NASCAR approved every car that must fit the template stuff they race now. Back then they had massive corporate support to showcase (advertise) their cars. The saying was "race it on Sunday and sell it on Monday". Now the only way you can distinguish is by the stickers of lights and grill on the cars to make it look like a Camaro, Mustang, or Camry.
BreakingWind
Master Class
I grew up thru the muscle car war years. Tried em all. Had Camaros, Mustangs, Super Bees, GTX, Road Runner, Cuda. Awesome speed machines in a straight line, unfortunately, they didn't handle worth a ****. Had a few of the Chrysler products with the 440 Magnum. Zero to Holy F%^& in 6.5 secs...