HansGruber
Ronin
Foot-pounds really don’t matter.
They don’t do damage; all they do is cause more recoil and slow down follow ups.
They don’t do damage; all they do is cause more recoil and slow down follow ups.
10mm vs .45 ACP for Self-Defense
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SaltyMonkey
Professional
Not sure I understand.
This is an Ai search for the term.
“A "foot pound" is a unit of energy, specifically referring to the amount of energy required to move a one-pound object by one foot in distance; essentially, it measures the force applied over a given distance in the Imperial system, where one foot-pound is equivalent to applying one pound of force over a distance of one foot.
Key points about foot pounds of energy:
- Unit symbol: ft-lb or ft⋅lbf
- Meaning: Represents the energy transferred when applying a force of one pound over a distance of one foot
- Application: Commonly used in fields like engineering and ballistics, particularly when discussing the power of a projectile like a bullet. ”
So my question is How is it that More Energy/ft transferred does not translate into more damage?
It one thing to get hit by a bowling ball rolling down a lane as opposed to being hit by that same bowling ball being shot out of a cannon.
This is interesting and took me down a rabbit hole.
Energy transfer is not the sole factor but one of many. Dated need forum that’s interesting.
What Determines Bullet Lethality?
Perhaps this question involves too many factors to consider and lends itself to being overly speculative but... What would seem to be the most important ballistic property of a bullet in determining lethality? (coming from another forum trying to get an answer from a more qualified group -...
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rcurtner
Professional
Makes good sense to me, thanks.Not sure I understand.
This is an Ai search for the term.
“A "foot pound" is a unit of energy, specifically referring to the amount of energy required to move a one-pound object by one foot in distance; essentially, it measures the force applied over a given distance in the Imperial system, where one foot-pound is equivalent to applying one pound of force over a distance of one foot.
Key points about foot pounds of energy:
- Unit symbol: ft-lb or ft⋅lbf
- Meaning: Represents the energy transferred when applying a force of one pound over a distance of one foot
- Application: Commonly used in fields like engineering and ballistics, particularly when discussing the power of a projectile like a bullet. ”
So my question is How is it that More Energy/ft transferred does not translate into more damage?
It one thing to get hit by a bowling ball rolling down a lane as opposed to being hit by that same bowling ball being shot out of a cannon.
This is interesting and took me down a rabbit hole.
Energy transfer is not the sole factor but one of many.
What Determines Bullet Lethality?
Perhaps this question involves too many factors to consider and lends itself to being overly speculative but... What would seem to be the most important ballistic property of a bullet in determining lethality? (coming from another forum trying to get an answer from a more qualified group -...www.physicsforums.com
Bear007
Custom
I guess I'm old fashion. My carries are multiple 9mms & 380s occasionally. My Heavy hitter is 40 s&w. After all, we all had to stop shooting 40 s&w because it recoiled too much, now we have to buy .45s or 10mm because they deliver more foot pounds ... I'm sooo confused!
Never saw a reason to buy a 10mm except "just because I can", which hasn't pushed me hard enough yet to win the argument, especially on those days when I wake up and my hand is already hurting Lol. You know how it is, sh_t happens when you start getting older.
Never saw a reason to buy a 10mm except "just because I can", which hasn't pushed me hard enough yet to win the argument, especially on those days when I wake up and my hand is already hurting Lol. You know how it is, sh_t happens when you start getting older.
HansGruber
Ronin
Because foot/pounds don’t, by themselves, wound.Not sure I understand.
This is an Ai search for the term.
“A "foot pound" is a unit of energy, specifically referring to the amount of energy required to move a one-pound object by one foot in distance; essentially, it measures the force applied over a given distance in the Imperial system, where one foot-pound is equivalent to applying one pound of force over a distance of one foot.
Key points about foot pounds of energy:
- Unit symbol: ft-lb or ft⋅lbf
- Meaning: Represents the energy transferred when applying a force of one pound over a distance of one foot
- Application: Commonly used in fields like engineering and ballistics, particularly when discussing the power of a projectile like a bullet. ”
So my question is How is it that More Energy/ft transferred does not translate into more damage?
It one thing to get hit by a bowling ball rolling down a lane as opposed to being hit by that same bowling ball being shot out of a cannon.
This is interesting and took me down a rabbit hole.
Energy transfer is not the sole factor but one of many. Dated need forum that’s interesting.
What Determines Bullet Lethality?
Perhaps this question involves too many factors to consider and lends itself to being overly speculative but... What would seem to be the most important ballistic property of a bullet in determining lethality? (coming from another forum trying to get an answer from a more qualified group -...
Example:
You could get punched in the chest by a healthy person who knows how to throw a punch, or shot by a broad head arrow in the chest. Which would you prefer?
The punch will deliver a heck of a lot more energy than the arrow (the punch will actually deliver more energy than a lot of bullets, in fact). But the odds of it killing you, unless you have some severe health issues, is very low.
The arrow, however…
In short, energy is about the worst way of measuring a bullet’s effectiveness there is.
SaltyMonkey
Professional
Ok I see your point when comparing a punch to a projectile , that is however, intended to go inside its target. I don’t think that’s exactly comparing apples to apples. A punch to a broad head.
Im not sure how you can say that ft/lbs of energy dont do damage to the intended target, just create a hindrance via energy felt through recoil to follow up shots.
Just based on 40 cal and 10 mm loads , they are the same projectiles just different size cases with different amounts of gunpowder. That additional gunpowder results in more energy being transferred into the target, it has greater recoil and does more damage. It acceptable to use the 10 mm loaded to its fullest potential against large game, I don’t think it recommended to use 40.
Similarly a 55 grain 556 round approx
ENERGY (foot-pounds)
Muzzle: 1306
While a 22 LR about the same projectile grain weight energy in ft/lbs is probably around 135-140 best I can look up.
“a higher value in foot-pounds (ft/lbs) generally indicates a greater potential for damage, as it represents a larger amount of energy transferred to an object, meaning more force is being applied over a given distance” - ai Google
HansGruber
Ronin
Yeah, but what does that energy *do*? Don’t give me a nebulous “more damage”—tell me exactly what it does.
If both bullets expand to, say .60, and both penetrate 16”, what exactly did you get for the higher energy besides more recoil, and a better chance of over penetration?
SaltyMonkey
Professional
You know… I don’t know. You’ve given me something to think about. While I don’t want to be hit by either;
I am guessing point of impact would be an additional variable to consider?
You’re not a fan of 10 mm I get it, nothing wrong with that.
To each his own, but given the choice if I did not own either I would choose the flatter shooting of the two.
I’m assuming quite a bit of juice is spent carrying that 45 at greater distances?
rcurtner
Professional
Yeah, and if a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his butt when he jumped.
dadoser
Master Class
(Not getting into a ballistics back & forth - I would not want to get shot by a .22, or any caliber.)
I was never into 45ACP. For me, I have always been a 9mm guy in autos or .38/.357 in revolvers.
I've never owned anything in 45. I have shot 45 1911s - more in the early 90s with a friend who was into them than recently. For whatever reason it just did not do much for me.
For the last 8 yrs I have bought, kept, and went through a lot of guns, but my thinking was to keep the number of calibers low - I.e. 22LR, .38/.357, 9mm, 556, and 300BLK.
When Sig came out with their slide comped 10mm a year ago, It got me thinking about adding another caliber. 10mm seemed more enticing than 45ACP......and there was this TV show in the 1980s based in Miami........
The FN 510 fit my hand the best and reviews were good - so I picked one up. Bought 1500 rounds and took it to the indoor range for a session. I liked it, but then it just kind of sat in the safe. Cheaper to run 9mm.
I've brought it out to an outdoor range twice in the last month. THAT 10mm is just a joy to shoot. It shoots flat. I'm repeatedly hitting steal at 35-40 yards distance. I weirdly even enjoy the recoil - kind of knocked me out of the complacency of constantly shooting 9mm. 10mm is both exciting and expensive.
I was never into 45ACP. For me, I have always been a 9mm guy in autos or .38/.357 in revolvers.
I've never owned anything in 45. I have shot 45 1911s - more in the early 90s with a friend who was into them than recently. For whatever reason it just did not do much for me.
For the last 8 yrs I have bought, kept, and went through a lot of guns, but my thinking was to keep the number of calibers low - I.e. 22LR, .38/.357, 9mm, 556, and 300BLK.
When Sig came out with their slide comped 10mm a year ago, It got me thinking about adding another caliber. 10mm seemed more enticing than 45ACP......and there was this TV show in the 1980s based in Miami........
The FN 510 fit my hand the best and reviews were good - so I picked one up. Bought 1500 rounds and took it to the indoor range for a session. I liked it, but then it just kind of sat in the safe. Cheaper to run 9mm.
I've brought it out to an outdoor range twice in the last month. THAT 10mm is just a joy to shoot. It shoots flat. I'm repeatedly hitting steal at 35-40 yards distance. I weirdly even enjoy the recoil - kind of knocked me out of the complacency of constantly shooting 9mm. 10mm is both exciting and expensive.
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HansGruber
Ronin
I’ve nothing against 10mm, beyond that it often gets hyped up as something it isn’t.
My point is, people talk about “more energy/more foot-pounds”, but can’t explain what that actually means when it comes to stopping/bullet performance; it often reminds me of the movie “Idiocracy”…
Sld1959
Ronin
I think the 10mm started out intending to be one thing, a self defence and police cartridge (Fbi), and hopefully replacing the. 45 acp. It failed to any great extent in both. It never came close to the. 45 acp popularity, was too strong recoil wise for many people and was not really any much more, if any statistically effective defensively which limited its popularity.
Soooo they they had to find a popular niche. Outdoors use. Once again it ran into more effective revolvers with heavier cartridges better suited to large dangerous game, think bad breath distance creating malfunctions.
So, more cartridges, with more foot pounds than .45 it is... they have gotten a fair following in those outdoorsmen who prefer a pistol to a revolver, they can justify the less effective cartridge with the additional cartridges on board. This is good for the cartridge and pistols chambered in it and will keep it going for many years. Without this niche I think it would probably be going the way of the .357 Sig into a slow downward spiral. But it will never touch the. 45 acp in popular use.
Just my personal opinion.
Soooo they they had to find a popular niche. Outdoors use. Once again it ran into more effective revolvers with heavier cartridges better suited to large dangerous game, think bad breath distance creating malfunctions.
So, more cartridges, with more foot pounds than .45 it is... they have gotten a fair following in those outdoorsmen who prefer a pistol to a revolver, they can justify the less effective cartridge with the additional cartridges on board. This is good for the cartridge and pistols chambered in it and will keep it going for many years. Without this niche I think it would probably be going the way of the .357 Sig into a slow downward spiral. But it will never touch the. 45 acp in popular use.
Just my personal opinion.
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Once again, shot placement is what counts. Hollow point bullets get the job done, whether 9mm/10mm/45acp. How the gun feels in your hands (fit), recoil management, and how comfortable it is to carry. Smaller-frame people are not going to be comfortable with heavier guns. If it's not comfortable I'm not carrying it. Also, how many times are we going to be shooting at an attacker from more than a handful of yards? So really how useful is discussing bullet energy when you can see the perps eyeballs? So 9mm wins out for me as a medium-size guy.
SaltyMonkey
Professional
Gotcha, I found an interesting chat on older message board. Here…
Foot lbs for dummies... [Archive] - The Firing Line Forums
[Archive] Foot lbs for dummies... General Discussion Forum
thefiringline.com
I admit I hear about and read these numbers and assume the larger the better. Anni, I’ll save you the meme. “That’s what she said.”
I don’t think it’s the single determinant factor, just one of many variables. However, just in my personal observations having owned both calibers. When shooting 45acp at around 30-40 yard range I can visibly see the projectile fade off, while the 10 mm I don’t see the same rapid fall off. So in my mind if I owned neither and had to choose one I would go with the 10, just because I want to be able to reach out a little further without losing anything and usually an additional round or two in the mag.
One example of where one could say more ft/lbs really matters with handgun bullets would be when using heavy flat nose hard cast bullets for bear/dangerous game defense. All that really matters here is maximum penetration so obviously more velocity/energy the deeper the bullet should penetrate. Theoretically.
Often times over driving hollow point handgun bullets will cause over expansion and thus under penetration rendering them less effective.
Often times over driving hollow point handgun bullets will cause over expansion and thus under penetration rendering them less effective.