Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Ayoob: What Is a Cross-Dominant Shooter?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/ayoob-what-is-a-cross-dominant-shooter/.
Ayoob: What Is a Cross-Dominant Shooter?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Hammer67
Professional
A couple thoughts on this article:
1) The focus on "Chapman" vs "Classic Weaver" vs "Isosceles" seems pretty archaic. I don't know many modern instructors that still focus on this, nor do I think that prescribed stances matter much in the real world. That said, I agree that something akin to the Isosceles stance, being more or less squared up to the target is most natural and conducive to cross-eye alignment. It's also the most natural for a bunch of other reasons.
2) In the year 2023, it seems pretty remiss to write an article on "Cross-Eye Dominance" in regards to handguns, and not at least mention that a red dot completely eliminates the issue. The red dot is a HUGE advantage for CED shooters, and I don't know why this benefit isn't mentioned more.
Agreed with the general gist of the article that more has been made of cross-eye dominance than is really necessary, and that there are plenty of really good shooters who are CED.
Sidenote - what the heck is Ayoob doing in that first pic? Holding a carbine with no sling in one hand and drawing his handgun with the other at the same time?
1) The focus on "Chapman" vs "Classic Weaver" vs "Isosceles" seems pretty archaic. I don't know many modern instructors that still focus on this, nor do I think that prescribed stances matter much in the real world. That said, I agree that something akin to the Isosceles stance, being more or less squared up to the target is most natural and conducive to cross-eye alignment. It's also the most natural for a bunch of other reasons.
2) In the year 2023, it seems pretty remiss to write an article on "Cross-Eye Dominance" in regards to handguns, and not at least mention that a red dot completely eliminates the issue. The red dot is a HUGE advantage for CED shooters, and I don't know why this benefit isn't mentioned more.
Agreed with the general gist of the article that more has been made of cross-eye dominance than is really necessary, and that there are plenty of really good shooters who are CED.
Sidenote - what the heck is Ayoob doing in that first pic? Holding a carbine with no sling in one hand and drawing his handgun with the other at the same time?
Bassbob
Emissary
Didn't need Mas to tell me any of this. I adapted to nearly this on my own after reading many articles about how I needed to start shooting from the weak side or train my eye. None of which I had any intention of doing.
I know we have had this discussion here many, many times, but I'll recount my method again briefly.
First, if you aren't shooting with both eyes open, start. The easiest and fastest way to do this can be done without ever firing a live round. Pick a target on an opposite wall and draw from your holster the way you normally do. Now instead of concentrating on your front sight, concentrate on the target and keep both eyes open. When you do this you will be able to easily focus with your eyes open. Keep doing that until it becomes second nature.
Now all you have to do is line the gun up with your dominant eye. You can either tilt your head or modify your draw stroke to bring your gun up in front of the dominant eye. In either case you are talking about 2". Not a big deal at all. All the gnashing of teeth about cross dominance is ridiculous.
I know we have had this discussion here many, many times, but I'll recount my method again briefly.
First, if you aren't shooting with both eyes open, start. The easiest and fastest way to do this can be done without ever firing a live round. Pick a target on an opposite wall and draw from your holster the way you normally do. Now instead of concentrating on your front sight, concentrate on the target and keep both eyes open. When you do this you will be able to easily focus with your eyes open. Keep doing that until it becomes second nature.
Now all you have to do is line the gun up with your dominant eye. You can either tilt your head or modify your draw stroke to bring your gun up in front of the dominant eye. In either case you are talking about 2". Not a big deal at all. All the gnashing of teeth about cross dominance is ridiculous.
Bassbob
Emissary
Yes, the shooting stances are way outdated. Regular fighting stance we all use is the way. This is the way.
And red dots absolutely make it a moot point. As do scopes. The only time it makes any difference is with iron sights or a beaded shotgun.
Im cross eye dominant, lm right eye dom but left handed. I shoot pistols left handed and rifles right handed. I probably should switch to shooting pistol right handed but Ive done it this way for so long I dont see the point in changing now. Arron Cowen of Sage Dynamics has a good video about being cross eye dominant. Hes also right eye dominant and left handed.
Snake45
Professional
Apparently you didn't read the article. He tells you exactly what is going on here, and why, and it makes perfect sense to me.
Hammer67
Professional
Apparently you didn't read the article. He tells you exactly what is going on here, and why, and it makes perfect sense to me.
I did read the article. I'll reserve my general thoughts on Ayoob and his advice. Regardless, long guns should have slings, period.
Snake45
Professional
And you were doing SO good in your first post in this thread, Bob.
Agreed, but we don't all use the same "fighting stance." We had this conversation before.
Disagree on that one. You are still going to line the red dot up with one eye or the other, probably the dominant eye.
Snake45
Professional
Okay, I won't argue with you, although it's a moot point because whether this rifle has a sling on it or not is completely irrelevant to the point he's making here.
Hammer67
Professional
Not if you're using the red dot properly. There is zero need to line one eye or the other up with the dot. Simply look at the dot with both eyes open, superimposed over the target. Dominance is irrelevant.
Bassbob
Emissary
You should be shooting a handgun left handed if you're left handed.
Bassbob
Emissary
Possibly. It depends I suppose if you shoot with both eyes open. Nevertheless, YOU zero'ed the red dot, so it will be zero'ed to however you shoot. Presumably. So it doesn't matter. Same with a scope. Same with anything that is adjustable and gets zero'ed. How you zero it is where it hits. Your eye dominance doesn't meanAnd you were doing SO good in your first post in this thread, Bob.
Agreed, but we don't all use the same "fighting stance." We had this conversation before.
Disagree on that one. You are still going to line the red dot up with one eye or the other, probably the dominant eye.
. I could zero any rifle using my non dominant eye only and every time I shoot it it would be on if I shoot with my non dominant eye. So, as I said, it doesn't matter.As far as fighting stance, I will concede everything ain't for everybody. If your need to use an icocelese stance is greater than your need to shoot with your dominant hand then you do you brother. I simply told you the easiest and fastest way to mitigate cross eye dominance with a handgun that has iron sights. Feel free to learn to shoot with your weak hand or wear a patch on your dominant eye until it becomes weaker than your other eye if that's what trips your trigger.
Snake45
Professional
Not to be argumentative, because I've learned to respect you and your opinion, but I think maybe you don't understand dominance and how it works.
Keep both eyes open and point to something across the room, quickly and without thinking about it. Close one eye, and then open it and close the other. Your finger was lined up with the "target" with one eye, wasn't it, and the other eye gave you a "sight picture" you've never seen before.
The red dot works the same way. With both eyes open, you will automatically "find" the red dot with one eye or the other. You CANNOT see the red dot with both eyes at the same time, you just THINK you are because both eyes are open.
I experimented with all this 20 or 30 years ago, when researching "point shooting" techniques, and discovered that it's just about impossible to "bring the gun up along your body centerline and fire when it's in line with your nose," as one well-known WWII-era instruction manual put it. Trying as hard as you can to follow those instructions, the gun will end up in front of your dominant eye. It's best to learn/know this and "go with the flow."
Bassbob
Emissary
This is true. You are only going to see the dot with whatever eye you shoulder the weapon on. However, since you zero'ed the weapon with that eye it will be on target because that's how you adjusted the optic. So it's irrelevant.Not to be argumentative, because I've learned to respect you and your opinion, but I think maybe you don't understand dominance and how it works.
Keep both eyes open and point to something across the room, quickly and without thinking about it. Close one eye, and then open it and close the other. Your finger was lined up with the "target" with one eye, wasn't it, and the other eye gave you a "sight picture" you've never seen before.
The red dot works the same way. With both eyes open, you will automatically "find" the red dot with one eye or the other. You CANNOT see the red dot with both eyes at the same time, you just THINK you are because both eyes are open.
I experimented with all this 20 or 30 years ago, when researching "point shooting" techniques, and discovered that it's just about impossible to "bring the gun up along your body centerline and fire when it's in line with your nose," as one well-known WWII-era instruction manual put it. Trying as hard as you can to follow those instructions, the gun will end up in front of your dominant eye. It's best to learn/know this and "go with the flow."
Hammer67
Professional
I'm not trying to be argumentative either, but the red dot does not work the same way that iron sights do. It's not two fixed points on the pistol like an iron sight - it's a floating holographic image. It moves around inside the window, but as long as the dot is on the target, you're going to hit the target - one eye open or both eyes open or aligned with your non-dominant eye. It doesn't matter.
I think we are diverging in our point of view on this because you are describing needing to focus on the dot itself.
If you are focusing on the dot when you are target shooting, that's fine, who cares. But if you are training for defensive shooting, you should never look at the dot, never focus on the dot, period. You remain target-focused the entire time, and the dot is raised into your sight picture peripherally. When the dot is superimposed over the target (again, without shifting your focus to the dot), you pull the trigger. If you're literally looking at the dot, you're using the dot incorrectly (again, for defensive purposes).
And this is why, with training, target-focused shooting with a red dot is faster than iron sights. You are never trying to align two things, you are never focusing on the sights to begin with. And yes, this is entirely possible to do with both eyes open, and without ever aligning one eye with the dot over the other.
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Snake45
Professional
Correct. You are getting it.
Bassbob
Emissary
Ha ha. Getting what Snake ? Everything I said was fact and that hasn't changed. Cross dominance is a moot point with optics.Correct. You are getting it.
Snake45
Professional
Okay, thanks for trying to explain. I appreciate it.
I have ZERO experience with a true holographic sight. None. So I don't know how those work at all.
I do have a common cheap "red dot" sight on an AR-type rifle. I just had it out and tried to make it behave as you described.
I held the gun out at arms length as though it were a handgun and put the red dot on a target with both eyes open. I moved it all around, as you described. The red dot moved all around but I'm gonna believe you when you say it was actually on target the entire time, regardless of where it appeared in the "window."
Then I closed my left eye (I'm right eye dominant) and repeated the exercise. It looked exactly as it had with both eyes open.
Then I tried it again, starting with both eyes open until I saw the red dot, and then I closed my RIGHT eye. Guess what? The dot disappeared entirely. I had to move either my head or the gun to see it again. Just as I said, it was NOT POSSIBLE to see the red dot with BOTH eyes at the SAME TIME. With both eyes open, the RD sight indexed to my RIGHT (dominant eye). And it didn't make a bit of difference if I were focusing on the red dot or only seeing it peripherally. It can only be indexed to one eye or the other at a time.
Did I explain all that clearly enough?
Snake45
Professional
You're actually correct-"ish" but not for the reason you think.
Hammer67
Professional
Okay, thanks for trying to explain. I appreciate it.
I have ZERO experience with a true holographic sight. None. So I don't know how those work at all.
I do have a common cheap "red dot" sight on an AR-type rifle. I just had it out and tried to make it behave as you described.
I held the gun out at arms length as though it were a handgun and put the red dot on a target with both eyes open. I moved it all around, as you described. The red dot moved all around but I'm gonna believe you when you say it was actually on target the entire time, regardless of where it appeared in the "window."
Then I closed my left eye (I'm right eye dominant) and repeated the exercise. It looked exactly as it had with both eyes open.
Then I tried it again, starting with both eyes open until I saw the red dot, and then I closed my RIGHT eye. Guess what? The dot disappeared entirely. I had to move either my head or the gun to see it again. Just as I said, it was NOT POSSIBLE to see the red dot with BOTH eyes at the SAME TIME. With both eyes open, the RD sight indexed to my RIGHT (dominant eye). And it didn't make a bit of difference if I were focusing on the red dot or only seeing it peripherally. It can only be indexed to one eye or the other at a time.
Did I explain all that clearly enough?
Then I guess my handgun red dots must be something special, because I zero them with both eyes open and I shoot them with both eyes open, without the dot aligned to my dominant eye at all, or my head tilted one way or the other - my head is square to the target without favoring one eye at all, and somehow I consistently hit the target.
How did you zero the red dot on your rifle to begin with? Did you zero it with one eye closed? And when you did your experiment 20-30 years ago, was that with a modern open emitter red dot, or with iron sights?
...and if you are opening and closing one eye and then the other, of course the dot (and the entire pistol) is going to jump around. That it wouldn't do so in that case wasn't at all what I was suggesting. I was saying that once you have acquired the dot with one eye, and the dot is on the target, it's going to hit it. But it will also hit it if you just continue looking at the target with both eyes, and bring the dot into your peripheral vision. I hope that makes sense.
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