Ayoob: What Is a Cross-Dominant Shooter?

[Snake45]

Then I guess my handgun red dots must be something special, because I zero them with both eyes open and I shoot them with both eyes open, without the dot aligned to my dominant eye at all, or my head tilted one way or the other - my head is square to the target without favoring one eye at all, and somehow I consistently hit the target.

How did you zero the red dot on your rifle to begin with? Did you zero it with one eye closed? And when you did your experiment 20-30 years ago, was that with a modern open emitter red dot, or with iron sights?

...and if you are opening and closing one eye and then the other, of course the dot is going to jump around. That it wouldn't do so in that case wasn't at all what I was suggesting. I was saying that if you acquire the dot with one eye, and the dot is on the target, it's going to hit it. I hope that makes sense.

Your last point first: Yes, if you acquire the dot with one eye--either eye, doesn't matter--you will hit the target.

Now, if you acquire the dot with both eyes open, you are actually only "acquiring" it with your dominant eye, whether that's left or right. The other eye doesn't see it at all. Now do you understand what I'm trying to say?

 

[Hammer67]

Now, if you acquire the dot with both eyes open, you are actually only "acquiring" it with your dominant eye, whether that's left or right. The other eye doesn't see it at all. Now do you understand what I'm trying to say?

I guess I see what you're saying (?), but it seems like a pretty esoteric point. I also don't see how that's relevant to the real world, if the dot is within my field of view and superimposed over the target with both eyes open (and I'd argue that what I'm actually seeing is a composite picture of what both eyes are taking in, not just one).

Practically speaking, I'm seeing the dot without have to do any of the tricks I would normally have to do to align iron sights with my cross-dominant eye, and that's what matters. Whether I'm "technically" only seeing the dot with one eye is irrelevant (and debatable), because that's not how I shoot (or how I recommend anyone shoots with a dot). I'm not doing anything to compensate for eye dominance in aligning the sight with the target - that's the whole point.

 

[Bassbob]

You're actually correct-"ish" but not for the reason you think.

Ok, I'll bite. Enlighten me.

And keep in mind this thread and my response is about handguns. Because as we have already determined, cross dominance is irrelevant with optics.

 

[Bassbob]

I guess I see what you're saying (?), but it seems like a pretty esoteric point. I also don't see how that's relevant to the real world, if the dot is within my field of view and superimposed over the target with both eyes open (and I'd argue that what I'm actually seeing is a composite picture of what both eyes are taking in, not just one).

Practically speaking, I'm seeing the dot without have to do any of the tricks I would normally have to do to align iron sights with my cross-dominant eye, and that's what matters. Whether I'm "technically" only seeing the dot with one eye is irrelevant (and debatable), because that's not how I shoot (or how I recommend anyone shoots with a dot). I'm not doing anything to compensate for eye dominance in aligning the sight with the target - that's the whole point.

It is irrelevant but it isn't debatable. You can't physically see the dot on a rifle with both eyes at the same time if the weapon is shouldered. It is semantics though. I don't think anyone here other than Snake was under the impression that anyone thought you could. And it was never the point.

 

[Bassbob]

The whole point of a dot is to have both eyes open. And POI isn't any different regardless of what eye you line the gun up in front of. Assuming you don't have a bad eye and you zero'ed the optic the same way you shoot the gun.

 

[Hammer67]

The whole point of a dot is to have both eyes open. And POI isn't any different regardless of what eye you line the gun up in front of. Assuming you don't have a bad eye and you zero'ed the optic the same way you shoot the gun.

Exactly. The whole point of a dot is to have both eyes open - and to not be doing anything with your head/eyes/hands to compensate for cross-dominance. Put the dot on the target and shoot, pure and simple.

 

[Snake45]

I guess I see what you're saying (?), but it seems like a pretty esoteric point. I also don't see how that's relevant to the real world, if the dot is within my field of view and superimposed over the target with both eyes open (and I'd argue that what I'm actually seeing is a composite picture of what both eyes are taking in, not just one).

Practically speaking, I'm seeing the dot without have to do any of the tricks I would normally have to do to align iron sights with my cross-dominant eye, and that's what matters. Whether I'm "technically" only seeing the dot with one eye is irrelevant (and debatable), because that's not how I shoot (or how I recommend anyone shoots with a dot). I'm not doing anything to compensate for eye dominance in aligning the sight with the target - that's the whole point.

You are correct about with both eyes open, your brain is seeing a "composite" picture. The part of the picture coming through your non-dominant eye doesn't have the red dot in it, but that's okay, because it's being provided by your dominant eye, which you have used to automatically and unconsciously align the dot with the target. And you're quite right about not having to do anything to compensate--you're doing it automatically, without having to think about it.

 

[Snake45]

Ok, I'll bite. Enlighten me.

And keep in mind this thread and my response is about handguns. Because as we have already determined, cross dominance is irrelevant with optics.

Yes, I realize we're talking about handguns. I can't argue about

cross dominance is irrelevant with optics

...because that statement could mean at least two different things, and I'm not sure which you intend. You might be exactly right or you might be wrong, depending on what you think you intended to say.

 

[Snake45]

It is irrelevant but it isn't debatable. You can't physically see the dot on a rifle with both eyes at the same time if the weapon is shouldered. It is semantics though. I don't think anyone here other than Snake was under the impression that anyone thought you could. And it was never the point.

You can't see the dot with BOTH eyes on an extended handgun, either*--dunno if I forgot to mention it or you didn't pick up on it, but I held my red-dotted AR out at arms length as if it were a handgun and I couldn't see the red dot if I closed my master eye.

*As I mentioned, I have NO experience with true hologram sights, so don't know if they work differently, but I don't think so.

 

[Bassbob]

Yes, I realize we're talking about handguns. I can't argue about

...because that statement could mean at least two different things, and I'm not sure which you intend. You might be exactly right or you might be wrong, depending on what you think you intended to say.

It's pretty clearly written. Let me put it this way. If you are cross eye dominant and you put a dot on your weapon, you don't need to do anything special to mitigate it. I will say that having recently went with a dot on a carry pistol I still push out to the same place I did before. Both eyes open, pistol lined up in front of my left eye.

 

[Snake45]

The whole point of a dot is to have both eyes open. And POI isn't any different regardless of what eye you line the gun up in front of. Assuming you don't have a bad eye and you zero'ed the optic the same way you shoot the gun.

Agree completely. POI will not change regardless of which eye you line up with. I'm just saying that with both eyes open, you automatically WILL line the dot up with the master eye, automatically and involuntarily.

Now if your master eye is out, you'll bring the gun up and align the dot with the other eye, and you'll do THAT pretty much without thinking about it, too. You'll just instinctively adjust your head or your hands or whatever's necessary to see that red dot, and as soon as you see it, you'll just drive on as normal.

 

[Bassbob]

You can't see the dot with BOTH eyes on an extended handgun, either*--dunno if I forgot to mention it or you didn't pick up on it, but I held my red-dotted AR out at arms length as if it were a handgun and I couldn't see the red dot if I closed my master eye.

*As I mentioned, I have NO experience with true hologram sights, so don't know if they work differently, but I don't think so.

Ah, but now we are back at the beginning. If you push your AR pistol out in front of your dominant eye or non dominant eye you can see the dot. We can sum it up simply like this. Regardless of the weapon you can only see the dot with one eye at a time. Which we already covered a few times here. Depending on how you present the weapon that can be either eye. End of story.

 

[Snake45]

It's pretty clearly written. Let me put it this way. If you are cross eye dominant and you put a dot on your weapon, you don't need to do anything special to mitigate it. I will say that having recently went with a dot on a carry pistol I still push out to the same place I did before. Both eyes open, pistol lined up in front of my left eye.

I can't disagree with anything you've written here. And nothing you've written here contradicts anything I've said. We're actually on the same page. I realize you just want to argue with me, but that's okay. I love you anyway, Bob.

 

[Bassbob]

Agree completely. POI will not change regardless of which eye you line up with. I'm just saying that with both eyes open, you automatically WILL line the dot up with the master eye, automatically and involuntarily.

Now if your master eye is out, you'll bring the gun up and align the dot with the other eye, and you'll do THAT pretty much without thinking about it, too. You'll just instinctively adjust your head or your hands or whatever's necessary to see that red dot, and as soon as you see it, you'll just drive on as normal.

This is absolutely untrue. If it weren't I wouldn't have been lining the gun up with my non dominant eye for years and years before I knew anything about eye dominance.

 

[Hammer67]

Agree completely. POI will not change regardless of which eye you line up with. I'm just saying that with both eyes open, you automatically WILL line the dot up with the master eye, automatically and involuntarily.

That's just a training issue. Sure, if you're CED and you're used to having to line up the pistol with your opposite eye, it's going to take a bit to overcome that habit when you switch to a RDS - this certainly happened with me, after years of compensating. But with lots of dry reps, I don't cock my head anymore - I drive the pistol straight out with both eyes facing the target squared up and equally.

 

[Bassbob]

I can't disagree with anything you've written here. And nothing you've written here contradicts anything I've said. We're actually on the same page. I realize you just want to argue with me, but that's okay. I love you anyway, Bob.

That's funny. Go back in the thread and re-read all the posts and tell me which one of us "Disagreed" first. Frankly I have spent most of this thread unaware what it was exactly you were disagreeing with since you've been all over the place and intentionally vague.

What I know is this. I am cross eye dominant and I have abundant experience shooting all standard weapon platforms with and without red dots or other optics with both eyes open. So I am reasonably certain there is no "Revelation" you or Massad Ayoob is going to educate me on with regards to it.

And I'll tell you this. Back when I was first made aware of the eye dominance thing I read every single thing I could find on the internet about it over the course of a few weeks or a month and I never read anyone anywhere suggest the method I have outlined here many times. And that includes Mas. I came up with my solution on my own and have talked about it in depth here many times. And it was long after that I started seeing other people talking about it.

 

[Snake45]

Ah, but now we are back at the beginning. If you push your AR pistol out in front of your dominant eye or non dominant eye you can see the dot. We can sum it up simply like this. Regardless of the weapon you can only see the dot with one eye at a time. Which we already covered a few times here. Depending on how you present the weapon that can be either eye. End of story.

I just tried it again to make sure. What you say here is technically correct. You can see the red dot with either eye if you put the dot in front of THAT eye. When I throw up the gun (and at arm's length, remember), my whole body wants to put the red dot in front of my master eye (in my case, right). With both eyes open, I see it. If I close the right eye, the dot disappears--I have to move either my head or the gun to see the dot with my LEFT eye.

 

[Bassbob]

I just tried it again to make sure. What you say here is technically correct. You can see the red dot with either eye if you put the dot in front of THAT eye. When I throw up the gun (and at arm's length, remember), my whole body wants to put the red dot in front of my master eye (in my case, right). With both eyes open, I see it. If I close the right eye, the dot disappears--I have to move either my head or the gun to see the dot with my LEFT eye.

It's a tricky thing to wrap your head around at first. It's the lining 2 or more things up on the sight plain that F's you up with cross eye dominance.

 

[Snake45]

This is absolutely untrue. If it weren't I wouldn't have been lining the gun up with my non dominant eye for years and years before I knew anything about eye dominance.

Not sure exactly what you're trying to say here. Again, you might be right or might be wrong, depending.

 

[Bassbob]

Take a ruler and put 3 dots on the plain a few inches apart. Remove the ruler and speculate where that line is much further down the plain. Move that first dot ( your eye) and that point will move by the same distance.