Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “9mm vs. 40 – Is the .40 Caliber a Better Handgun Cartridge?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/9mm-vs-40/.
9mm vs. 40 – Is the .40 Caliber a Better Handgun Cartridge?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Good article. Glad the size of the FBI S&W 1076 was mentioned as that was the major reason of the 40 cal creation more so than Ammo being too powerful that gets regurgitated. Good on the author to mention that!
If you were to outfit a whole agency I get 9mm. If you have a 40 nothing wrong with keeping it,
it’s just hard to beat a 9 with cost acceptable performance and with less pressure less wear on firearms (talking polymer stuff but you still have to swap out recoil springs more frequently unless you run a revolver like a S&W 610)
If you were to outfit a whole agency I get 9mm. If you have a 40 nothing wrong with keeping it,
it’s just hard to beat a 9 with cost acceptable performance and with less pressure less wear on firearms (talking polymer stuff but you still have to swap out recoil springs more frequently unless you run a revolver like a S&W 610)
Last edited:
Annihilator
Emissary
Yea, my S&W 610 loves .40 caliber, shoots them just fine
I agree with much of what the article said. But here is just another historical tidbit. The 40 S&W cartridge was actually designed by 5 Smith and Wesson engineers sitting around a lunch table on a napkin ten years before the FBI moved to 10mm. One of my friends was one of those working at Smith at the time and shooting for Team Smith and Wesson. They wanted a higher capacity pistol that would meet major power factor for IPSC competition than the .45ACP. They also wanted a caliber that would meet those power factors and capacity increases but also shot relatively flat. They designed it on a napkin where it sat on a shelf for ten years.
When the FBI came knocking, it was dusted off. Unfortunately for Smith, Glock beat them to the production line on the pistol.
I have carried all three of the most common cartridges in my career and post career EDC. Nine, forty and forty five. The 9 versus 40 really comes down to this. The nine is easier for most shooters to master. The chamber pressures and slide velocities are much slower than the 40. The lighter the 40 caliber bullet, the faster the slide velocities beat up the gun. For the average user it may not be a huge deal. But one agency tests their guns to 10,000 rounds. They used 155 grain Federal. The pressure curve is nearly straight up and down. They swap out parts at 5,000 rounds and trash them at 10,300 rounds. Of course this Federal agency has switched to nines now. But it demonstrates how rough the 40 S&W cartridge can be on a pistol.
Shot placement is the most important factor in a handgun fight. Since most cops and federal law enforcement are not always the most practiced shooters, the softer recoil of the 9mm with improved projectiles with outstanding terminal ballistics sort of cancels out the advantages of the 40 S&W cartridge. Likewise capacity is increased in the 9mm and the firearm can be built just a bit lighter and more compact. There is nothing wrong with the forty, but from the standpoint of an agency, the 9 does make sense.
When the FBI came knocking, it was dusted off. Unfortunately for Smith, Glock beat them to the production line on the pistol.
I have carried all three of the most common cartridges in my career and post career EDC. Nine, forty and forty five. The 9 versus 40 really comes down to this. The nine is easier for most shooters to master. The chamber pressures and slide velocities are much slower than the 40. The lighter the 40 caliber bullet, the faster the slide velocities beat up the gun. For the average user it may not be a huge deal. But one agency tests their guns to 10,000 rounds. They used 155 grain Federal. The pressure curve is nearly straight up and down. They swap out parts at 5,000 rounds and trash them at 10,300 rounds. Of course this Federal agency has switched to nines now. But it demonstrates how rough the 40 S&W cartridge can be on a pistol.
Shot placement is the most important factor in a handgun fight. Since most cops and federal law enforcement are not always the most practiced shooters, the softer recoil of the 9mm with improved projectiles with outstanding terminal ballistics sort of cancels out the advantages of the 40 S&W cartridge. Likewise capacity is increased in the 9mm and the firearm can be built just a bit lighter and more compact. There is nothing wrong with the forty, but from the standpoint of an agency, the 9 does make sense.
I was an LEO in Florida when the S&W 4006 was introduced. My duty weapon at the time was an S&W 3904. I shot 'Expert' with it. Our duty load was the 2nd Gen 115gr W-W SilverTip. I managed to spend quite a bit of range time with a new 4006 that my dad bought. My impression: it was a boat anchor. As it only offered (2) more rounds over my 3904, and the only readily available duty round at the time was Remington's 180gr JHP, I didn't see what all the fuss was about. I still don't. I was carrying a G22 on duty when I left LE. I shot it very well. And 'Yes'. I own a .40 (a recently purchased Like New SIG P239 that I simply couldn't pass up for $475). In over 40+ years of shooting, instructing, and EDCing handguns, only 2 .40 S&Ws have impressed me: SIG's P239 and Browning's Hi-Power. If using a .40S&W for EDC, I prefer 135-155gr JHPs. YMMV
youngolddude
Professional
Good, Better, Best.
I really don't like articles with these kinds of statements. Better for what? Law enforcement? FBI? Self defense? Accuracy? Stopping large furry animals? Better on the wallet?
I've not shot a .40 or a 10 mm pistol. Neither appeals to me. I appreciate positive attributes noted by others just because I like firearms. If it isn't my taste, I still will read an article just to see what the author likes.
If I had an interest, I could definitely see myself buying a police trade in and using it for fun at the range.
There are several things that are negatives for me. It is a higher pressure round that is hard on a weapon. I have and shoot multiple calibers and have no interest in acquiring another. What if I were to shoot one and actually like it? I currently have multiple rabbit holes I'm pursuing and I'm not real good at juggling.
I really don't like articles with these kinds of statements. Better for what? Law enforcement? FBI? Self defense? Accuracy? Stopping large furry animals? Better on the wallet?
I've not shot a .40 or a 10 mm pistol. Neither appeals to me. I appreciate positive attributes noted by others just because I like firearms. If it isn't my taste, I still will read an article just to see what the author likes.
If I had an interest, I could definitely see myself buying a police trade in and using it for fun at the range.
There are several things that are negatives for me. It is a higher pressure round that is hard on a weapon. I have and shoot multiple calibers and have no interest in acquiring another. What if I were to shoot one and actually like it? I currently have multiple rabbit holes I'm pursuing and I'm not real good at juggling.
CCJ
Operator
What is left unsaid is that the introduction light plastic guns made it difficult for many recruits to qualify. The increased recoil and muzzle flip of these guns had a profound impact on law enforcement personnel's ability to do what they were expect to do on the range and on the job. Having many police friends during this time, everyone of them told me the move back to 9mm was influence by this. Is the 40S&W better? Well, yes, but... it becomes a trade off when you start to look at the light weight guns. I will say that the last several years have seen great improvement in the 9mm.
Just for the record I own three 40s including the 4006. I hand load 155gr (can't always find them) and have used 165gr. I always felt that 180gr was a bit much for a .40 caliber, and I preferred the slightly higher velocities of the lighter bullets. Just my 2c.
Just for the record I own three 40s including the 4006. I hand load 155gr (can't always find them) and have used 165gr. I always felt that 180gr was a bit much for a .40 caliber, and I preferred the slightly higher velocities of the lighter bullets. Just my 2c.
Last edited:
babaylan
Alpha
I’ve said this before, and I’m sure I’ll say it again, but the needs of the civilian are not the same as those of police or military. Of the four most popular pistol calibres (.380 ACP, 9x19 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP), it’s pretty clear that the energy level of .380 ACP is marginal, 9x19 mm seems to perform adequately, .40 S&W performs better, and .45 ACP performs best of all.
While it is true that “modern” projectile design has made 9x19 mm more effective than it was, those same advantages are equally applicable to heavier calibres. In terms of power vs. capacity, .40 S&W is probably the ideal compromise. It offers a good 25-30% more power than 9x19 mm while giving up little in capacity, compared with .45 ACP.
In this, I mean comparing apples to apples. Yes, you can load a 9 mm +P supersonic that is equal to a .40 S&W or .45 ACP non-+P subsonic, but then you are also increasing muzzle blast and recoil, and that might not be a good trade-off.
The most common subsonic personal defense specific loads for these calibres are:
95 gr .380 ACP
147 gr 9x19 mm
180 gr .40 S&W
230 gr .45 ACP
Subsonic ammunition is, in my opinion, the best choice for personal defense, because it generally has less muzzle blast and recoil, and with projectiles specifically designed to penetrate and expand at subsonic velocities, it has much less tendency toward overpenetration.
My advice is generally always going to be to choose from these four the most powerful calibre that you and every other authorized user of your weapon can shoot accurately and quickly enough to double tap your target. Given similar velocities, a larger, heavier bullet is always going to carry more energy and deliver more transfer of momentum.
But, these aren’t necessarily the only concerns. Compatibility with other weapons and other people is often important or at least desireable, and the popularity and lower recoil of 9x19 mm makes it a very compelling choice for a lot of people, and .45 ACP is probably still more popular than .40 S&W.
If you can reliably shoot and conceal a double-stack .45 ACP handgun, that is, in my opinion, the best choice of all, but they can tend to be pretty chunky, and even if it works for you, it might not also work for your spouse.
The right choice for you isn’t necessarily going to be the right choice for someone else.
While it is true that “modern” projectile design has made 9x19 mm more effective than it was, those same advantages are equally applicable to heavier calibres. In terms of power vs. capacity, .40 S&W is probably the ideal compromise. It offers a good 25-30% more power than 9x19 mm while giving up little in capacity, compared with .45 ACP.
In this, I mean comparing apples to apples. Yes, you can load a 9 mm +P supersonic that is equal to a .40 S&W or .45 ACP non-+P subsonic, but then you are also increasing muzzle blast and recoil, and that might not be a good trade-off.
The most common subsonic personal defense specific loads for these calibres are:
95 gr .380 ACP
147 gr 9x19 mm
180 gr .40 S&W
230 gr .45 ACP
Subsonic ammunition is, in my opinion, the best choice for personal defense, because it generally has less muzzle blast and recoil, and with projectiles specifically designed to penetrate and expand at subsonic velocities, it has much less tendency toward overpenetration.
My advice is generally always going to be to choose from these four the most powerful calibre that you and every other authorized user of your weapon can shoot accurately and quickly enough to double tap your target. Given similar velocities, a larger, heavier bullet is always going to carry more energy and deliver more transfer of momentum.
But, these aren’t necessarily the only concerns. Compatibility with other weapons and other people is often important or at least desireable, and the popularity and lower recoil of 9x19 mm makes it a very compelling choice for a lot of people, and .45 ACP is probably still more popular than .40 S&W.
If you can reliably shoot and conceal a double-stack .45 ACP handgun, that is, in my opinion, the best choice of all, but they can tend to be pretty chunky, and even if it works for you, it might not also work for your spouse.
The right choice for you isn’t necessarily going to be the right choice for someone else.
quidproquocoins
Alpha
I worked in a gun shop in the 1990’s. I heard 9mm horror stories from police officers. I have and carry a 40 S&W. I was never attracted to the 9mm. Before I went to 40, I was a 45ACP guy. I believe that the FBI move to 9mm was more about agents qualifying with their duty firearm than anything else.Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “9mm vs. 40 – Is the .40 Caliber a Better Handgun Cartridge?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/9mm-vs-40/.
CCJ
Operator
Yup... heard this from my police friends... everyone of them.
I saw the aftermath (responded to it) of a 45 230 JHp center punch failure so there’s no magic. What we have learned over the years while bullet construction has gotten better and 9mm has gained more as they have gotten expansions and penetration down with the 9mm speed and weight (while all calibers have benefited they haven’t benefitted as much as the 9)
The issue was shot placement we have learned upper thoracic hits matter more than anything else.
Lots of other LE shootings with the 9mm 115 Silver-tip that was effective but that one shooting was what a lot of folks based it on.
As far as the 357 mag while the 125 JHH was and is a force to be reckoned with the blast alone was learned to factor into its effectiveness as many of the “1 shot stops” were not even hit and it was a psychological stop as you are throwing a hands free flashbang at them. 357 and 124 9mm at 1,200 FPS has the same penetration and terminal ballistics.
Of course we still hear “don’t shoot 38’s in a 357 it will keep you from being able to chamber a mag”
You like 40 or 45 or whatever use it. It’s the users skill over caliber as long as quality non anemic loaded ammo is used!
CCJ
Operator
well, I won't argue about the benefits of shot placement. This is the #1 factor in the shooter's ability to stop another and not so much a reflection of the abilities of a particular caliber. However, blood loss will also have an impact on stopping ability. While under pressure, no matter the caliber, placing the shot in the exact right place is difficult. Hence, it boils down to the wound channel. Rapid blood loss will render a person unconscious in seconds even if no vital organs are hit. The larger the wound channel the faster one's blood pressure will drop. This too must be considered when talking about the effectiveness of a particular caliber.
Last edited:
RIGHT ON THE MONEY!!!
What was left out of the article was fundamental change in the FBI’s philosophy of a “one shot stop”- the FBI finally admitted that there was really no such thing and found that most officer (including agents) involved shootings multiple shots were fired and suspects were hit multiple times. The Feebs realized that if multiple hits are going to be required to stop an assailant then an “easier shooting” gun was what was needed.
And while 9mm projectile technology has greatly changed since 1986, the same can also be said of .40 and .45 (and .380- but that is still a 9mm).
And our department started transitioning from .40 S&W to 9mm's the day I retired (thankfully). I'm not sure that I would have had the confidence in a 9mm with some of the stuff I encountered over 30 years... but it would have been nice to retire with a new pistol...
vjb.knife1
Alpha
The reason that 40 lost it's popularity is that the FBI in it's infinite wisdom dropped it just like they dropped the 10mm because their agents are too weak knee'd to handle either one of them. You figure out why. When they did that; rather than use their own intelligence to figure out why that happened a lot of shooters and agencies followed their lead, and dumped their .40's in favor of the 9mm without question. And then the manufacturers had to stop producing the .40 pistols because the market for them fell away and it snowballed from there. Poor choices led to worse ones.
I like all three cartridges (not 380 any longer) and have pistols in each caliber. An XDME in 10mm with 16 rounds is a hard show to follow, but I still wish Springfield made the same pistol in .40; I'd buy one tomorrow. I guess my H&K will have to fill that spot.
I don't think there is anything wrong with 9mm; I like it a lot and I have 3 pistols in that caliber. When people say that 9mm performs as well now because they have improved the cartridge loading and bullets, well guess what, you can ramp up the loading of the .40 and use the same design bullets as well. This is nothing new; there always were 9mm +p loads and hot carry rounds for any of the cartridges. And Many of us reload which gives even greater flexibility.
I would not want to be shot by any of these rounds, it is not fun. I was shot at a range one day back in the 1980's by a woman next to me with a .38 derringer as she pulled it out of her purse. Luckily, the range owners came out before I loaded my .45 1911 to return fire, and talked me out of it. I feel bad for almost anyone who gets shot.
Summing my long rant up; I like .40 a lot; if you don't that is fine don't buy one, but it is still a fine caliber.
I like all three cartridges (not 380 any longer) and have pistols in each caliber. An XDME in 10mm with 16 rounds is a hard show to follow, but I still wish Springfield made the same pistol in .40; I'd buy one tomorrow. I guess my H&K will have to fill that spot.
I don't think there is anything wrong with 9mm; I like it a lot and I have 3 pistols in that caliber. When people say that 9mm performs as well now because they have improved the cartridge loading and bullets, well guess what, you can ramp up the loading of the .40 and use the same design bullets as well. This is nothing new; there always were 9mm +p loads and hot carry rounds for any of the cartridges. And Many of us reload which gives even greater flexibility.
I would not want to be shot by any of these rounds, it is not fun. I was shot at a range one day back in the 1980's by a woman next to me with a .38 derringer as she pulled it out of her purse. Luckily, the range owners came out before I loaded my .45 1911 to return fire, and talked me out of it. I feel bad for almost anyone who gets shot.
Summing my long rant up; I like .40 a lot; if you don't that is fine don't buy one, but it is still a fine caliber.
i have carried both during my le career, i like both and trained and felt comfy with both. now that i have retired i own and carry both calibers as my edc, along with a couple other calibers. train, practice, get proficient, with what ever you carry. also carry a good premium ammo for defensive encounters. there are several ammo manufacturers that produce a good premium defensive ammo. however i am partial to the federal hydra shock or hst ammo in all my calibers
I worked a shooting back in the mid 90's where a legit outlaw biker was shot 4 times in the chest with .45 ACPs (probably hardball as they were fired from an old 1911) and walked to the ambulance after the dust settled.... I admit that he was a pretty big boy to begin with,, but four didn't even slow him down- much less stop him....
And with the 9mm Silvertip, the FBI said that it expanded to fast to penetrate but then a lot of police agencies were having them shoot clear through suspects... so which was it- too much expansion or too little...?????
Hydra shock ammo never really gets talked about and is getting harder to find in a lot of places. I have a couple .45’s I carry it in.