9mm vs. 40 – Is the .40 Caliber a Better Handgun Cartridge?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
I predominately carry 9mm in compact sub compact semi pistols (occasionally work in the EMP). I occasionally carry Commander size or Shield .45acp and the 10mm full size 1911 typically hits the deer lease. I feel good about my choices and think my round will be fine for intended purpose.
Video circulating on the internet a while ago depicts a bank robber being shot in the neck (carotid artery?). Blood spurting everywhere in copious streams. Takes him 32-34 seconds to bleed out. An aggressor can do a lot of damage in that amount of time. So, I’m not so sure that blood loss alone is a huge contributor to “stopping power”. I’m no ballistics expert, nor forensic pathologist………..just sharing what was obvious in the video.
Remember the LE-involved shooting in Washington or Oregon where the BG was hit (14) times with .40 and still fought back?
Good article. ECS686 is right. The FBI had problems with the Smith 1076 NOT the cartridge.Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “9mm vs. 40 – Is the .40 Caliber a Better Handgun Cartridge?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/9mm-vs-40/.
The gun was big and heavy for concealed carry, and because the FBI wanted a decocker like a SIG 226 that was added. Some of the decockers failed, locking the gun so it could not be fired or unloaded. An agent coming off a stakeout was particularly upset when he discovered his gun would not work. Smith and the FBI did not agree on a fix to this problem and this is when the FBI transitioned to .40 glocks.
10mm recoil was NOT a reason for the change. From day 1 the FBI issued the reduced federal 180 grain 10mm load at about 950-1000fps and later a bonded 190 grain load. There may have been some other brands but those are the two I saw that the FBI firearms instructors in the field had and talked about. Both are very accurate and pleasant to shoot in full size guns. The American rifleman published a detailed article with the head of the FBI firearms unit as the transition started on how they used reloaded Sierra 180’s in a Colt Delta elite to figure out how fast they need to push the bullet to achieve their goals and surpass the 9mm and .45 in their penetration tests. This where the phrase I don’t care what you shoot as long as it begins with a 4 comes from.
There was talk of keeping full power 10mm loads at offices for special situations but I don’t know of that happening. The FBI had done a similar thing with .357 and .38 special.
Later with the Glock .40 S&W the FBI went from 180 grain bullets around 1,000fps to 165 grain bullets at 1,000fps. They said the 165s penetrated windshields better. They suspected the higher chamber pressure of the 180 load was stressing the base of the jacket, hindering its performance compared the 180 10mm load. This maybe where the rumor or excessive recoil was started.
I like 40s but now I am usually carrying a 9mm (smaller guns) or a full power 10mm. However, there are days when I think an M&P compact .40 would be just right.
Mr. Untactical
Master Class
In the overly technical (to me) but well-written article - although I get that a lot of my fellow members revel in ballistic coefficients - the sentence that stood out the most was, "In the end, the FBI blamed much of what happened on a single 9mm round fired by the FBI that failed to immediately stop Platte."
Bear in mind, I'm untactical and coming to the firearms team late in the game (@ 2017), I've only ever had experience with .22 LR, .380, 9mm, .45 ACP and .223/5.56). That said, I think I shot a friend's .40 (it was a Glock, and they all look alike) and although it was lively, I got rounds on target on the flat range.
Point is, during my tenure on team EDC, the constant drum beat in (civilian) defensive firearm use has been "Keep shooting until the target is no longer a threat."
Am I to understand that the FBI subscribed to a one-shot threat elimination policy? If that's the case, I wonder how many of their agents could actually pull that off in the heat of battle.
Honestly, my eyes glaze over when listening to folks wax poetic about muzzle velocity, delivered force, etc. I kind of like the system where someone says, "This and such will do the job well," and then I can go on from there.
I carry 147 grain or 124 grain JHP in my carry firearm. Thankfully, I've never had to employ the tool in self defense and gauge how effective 9mm is in a real-world situation. What I do know, is that 13+1 of either of those ought to serve me well in all but the most apocalyptic of scenarios. And if it comes to that, reload.
Bear in mind, I'm untactical and coming to the firearms team late in the game (@ 2017), I've only ever had experience with .22 LR, .380, 9mm, .45 ACP and .223/5.56). That said, I think I shot a friend's .40 (it was a Glock, and they all look alike) and although it was lively, I got rounds on target on the flat range.
Point is, during my tenure on team EDC, the constant drum beat in (civilian) defensive firearm use has been "Keep shooting until the target is no longer a threat."
Am I to understand that the FBI subscribed to a one-shot threat elimination policy? If that's the case, I wonder how many of their agents could actually pull that off in the heat of battle.
Honestly, my eyes glaze over when listening to folks wax poetic about muzzle velocity, delivered force, etc. I kind of like the system where someone says, "This and such will do the job well," and then I can go on from there.
I carry 147 grain or 124 grain JHP in my carry firearm. Thankfully, I've never had to employ the tool in self defense and gauge how effective 9mm is in a real-world situation. What I do know, is that 13+1 of either of those ought to serve me well in all but the most apocalyptic of scenarios. And if it comes to that, reload.
MountainWestBob
Alpha
I'd only suggest that the weapon and ammo choice that brings you to the range and encourages you to shoot more and more often is the better choice. For some, the price of ammo is very important. For others, the whole experience of shooting needs to be positive. For most of us, I'd submit that the 9 is the better choice.
The Night Rider
Professional
I liked the .40 S&W until I had to shoot it out of a plastic gun.
The first .40 I ever shot was a CZ75B. It was a great big heavy steel gun that just soaked up the recoil. My second .40 was a S&W model 4006. Again a relatively heavy steel gun that mitigates recoil.
When I worked as an armed guard my employer issued the S&W M&P40. It was a good gun and I generally shot 290(ish)out of 300 possible every time I qualified with it but by the end of the training session I was feeling the recoil and I developed a flinch. It wasn't a fun gun to shoot like my M&P9 is.
About 4 years ago I decided to consolidate down to one handgun caliber. The decision was between 9mm and .40S&W and there really was no decision to make. My wife is arthritic an can't shoot a .40. We sold off all the .40S&W guns (except the 4006 in case 9mm becomes hard to find again) and went with 9mm.
I wrote the above about 6 years ago. Now I have Arthritis and I wouldn't want to shoot a .40 and I certainly wouldn't want to carry an all steel pistol.
The first .40 I ever shot was a CZ75B. It was a great big heavy steel gun that just soaked up the recoil. My second .40 was a S&W model 4006. Again a relatively heavy steel gun that mitigates recoil.
When I worked as an armed guard my employer issued the S&W M&P40. It was a good gun and I generally shot 290(ish)out of 300 possible every time I qualified with it but by the end of the training session I was feeling the recoil and I developed a flinch. It wasn't a fun gun to shoot like my M&P9 is.
About 4 years ago I decided to consolidate down to one handgun caliber. The decision was between 9mm and .40S&W and there really was no decision to make. My wife is arthritic an can't shoot a .40. We sold off all the .40S&W guns (except the 4006 in case 9mm becomes hard to find again) and went with 9mm.
I wrote the above about 6 years ago. Now I have Arthritis and I wouldn't want to shoot a .40 and I certainly wouldn't want to carry an all steel pistol.
bandaidman
Operator
The question that I see is two fold. First, most LEO's are not gun guys or girls. Because of that and limited ammunition budgets of agency's few shoot more than during qualifications. If you can't hit the target with a 9mm what good does a 40 or 44 make? Second, If you do know how to shoot and can hit with a larger caliber round then go for it. I have shot both 9 and 40 as well as 45 and 44. I shoot them well because I practice. However I shoot 9mm more accurately.
The Night Rider
Professional
javbike
Hellcat
My favorite movie I got a model 27 because it looks like Dirty Harry but without the recoil
Mr. Untactical
Master Class
I'll have to watch at home apparently. My dang YouTube keeps getting set to restricted... I'm guessing it's our IT overlords
Mr. Untactical
Master Class
Heck, I sold our Hellcat and bought a Ronin .45 ACP Commander
And honestly, I'm thinking about selling it. Pretty gun, the Ronin, but I have a failure to fire on nearly every mag. Not sure if it's ammo or what, but I hate pulling that trigger and then... nothing. Firing pin is indenting the primer square in the middle, but no "boom."so use to the Hellcat , its like a part of my right hand ........ got two of them ......Heck, I sold our Hellcat and bought a Ronin .45 ACP Commander
Mr. Untactical
Master Class
Shooting more than a couple of mags with our Hellcat was like holding a cat (no pun intended). I wanted to like it so much, but compared to my XD Mod.2 subcompact, it was awful. Loved the look, loved the sight picture. Just didn't care for the shooting experience. Glad it works great for you!
HansGruber
Ronin
No, they didn’t have a “shoot once” policy.
Read up on the “Miami Massacre”—it was a complete FUBAR in tactical assessment, and an utter goatfu(dge) when they executed the stop.
It was a running gunfight. One round—the Silvertip—had a chance to stop one of the attackers(Platte), but didn’t due to stopping just short of the heart. Platte went on to kill two agents.
A LOT of rounds were fired—not just one.
I always appreciate the articles. I am not LE but have carried for several years now. As has been stated in earlier posts it is all about your ability. I have a XD MOD.2 .45 ACP 4" SERVICE for unwelcome guests during the night and really don't understand why this isn't still produced. EDC it is easy to drop performance for convenience. My wife carries a 380 911, another nice pistol dropped for today's fashion fads.