9mm vs. 40 – Is the .40 Caliber a Better Handgun Cartridge?

[The Night Rider]

One round—the Silvertip—had a chance to stop one of the attackers(Platte), but didn’t due to stopping just short of the heart.

I have read a couple of assessments of that fight that stated that that particular wound cut through platt's brachial artery and would have killed him no matter what.

Take it for what it's worth but James Yeager said that they could have shot him in the operating room with a surgeon standing by and he still would have died.

It just didn't kill him fast enough.

 

[Mr. Untactical]

No, they didn’t have a “shoot once” policy.

Read up on the “Miami Massacre”—it was a complete FUBAR in tactical assessment, and an utter goatfu(dge) when they executed the stop.

It was a running gunfight. One round—the Silvertip—had a chance to stop one of the attackers(Platte), but didn’t due to stopping just short of the heart. Platte went on to kill two agents.

A LOT of rounds were fired—not just one.

It's been a long time since I read anything on that. I think the last was an article by Mr. Ayoob. By all accounts the whole thing was a Charlie Foxtrot.

 

[Gus2259]

Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “9mm vs. 40 – Is the .40 Caliber a Better Handgun Cartridge?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/9mm-vs-40/.

I have to wonder if the same among research and development on ammo had been done for the .40 as has been done for the 9mm, how much improvement would there be in the .40. Also in a defensive shoot I’ll take whatever little improvement that the .40 currently offers vs the 9mm. That little bit might be the difference you need to survive.

 

[challedog]

Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “9mm vs. 40 – Is the .40 Caliber a Better Handgun Cartridge?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/9mm-vs-40/.

You missed the major factor for most law enforcement agencies (also mentioned in the FBI report). Cost benefit. Large agencies can save millions each year by purchasing the less expensive 9mm ammunition, and reduced pistol maintenance costs. Being a high pressure cartridge, the .40SW wears out parts faster than the 9mm. The big takeaway has to do not which caliber is Best, rather which has the best cost benefit to an agency when the most important factor in defensive shooting is accurate fire on target.

 

[Mr. Untactical]

No, they didn’t have a “shoot once” policy.

Read up on the “Miami Massacre”—it was a complete FUBAR in tactical assessment, and an utter goatfu(dge) when they executed the stop.

It was a running gunfight. One round—the Silvertip—had a chance to stop one of the attackers(Platte), but didn’t due to stopping just short of the heart. Platte went on to kill two agents.

A LOT of rounds were fired—not just one.

It's been a long time since I read anything on that. I think the last was an article by Mr. Ayoob. By all accounts the whole thing was a Charlie Foxtrot.

 

[The Night Rider]

I have to wonder if the same among research and development on ammo had been done for the .40 as has been done for the 9mm, how much improvement would there be in the .40.

if I understood correctly, the FBI wanted a round that would reliably penetrate between 12 and 18 inches but not more than 18 inches.

The .40 already did that and already adequately met FBI standards.

The balistic improvements were applied to the 40 and it still met standards.

I don't know how to say this exactly right but it was "good enough" and making it better didn't make it significantly more "good enough".

 

[ECS686]

well, I won't argue about the benefits of shot placement. This is the #1 factor in the shooter's ability to stop another and not so much a reflection of the abilities of a particular caliber. However, blood loss will also have an impact on stopping ability. While under pressure, no matter the caliber, placing the shot in the exact right place is difficult. Hence, it boils down to the wound channel. Rapid blood loss will render a person unconscious in seconds even if no vital organs are hit. The larger the wound channel the faster one's blood pressure will drop. This too must be considered when talking about the effectiveness of a particular caliber.

I somewhat disagree. A hit with a 9mm that fails would be a failure if hit the same spot with a 45 in all but the minute of occurrences. I mean that little bit more might “cut the line” so to speak but it just doesn’t pan out in real shootings from what I have seen.

People (well real thug criminal types) can take a lot of blunt force teams and live through it. I’ve seen it first hand inside Federal Penitentiaries as well as inmates that have been shot with everything to include 308 rifles and 00 buck 12 gauge with nothing more than a slight limp. I have also seen a ton of shootings as a municipal PD guy outside Memphis so while I do like a 45 it’s not because I feel it’s got any advantage I just can shoot it well and it’s what I like.

My retirement job has eased up the 45 requirement and I am going to my 9mm Sig 226 when I go back to work next month so caliber is a moot point for me but if someone likes it because they are uncomfortable by all means do you!

Glad we have all adequate choices

 

[HansGruber]

I have read a couple of assessments of that fight that stated that that particular wound cut through platt's brachial artery and would have killed him no matter what.

Take it for what it's worth but James Yeager said that they could have shot him in the operating room with a surgeon standing by and he still would have died.

It just didn't kill him fast enough.

James Yeager’s medical opinion is questionable, at best.

But you are right—it didn’t cause a rapid stop.

 

[Old Airborne Dog]

my investigation for this piece tells me that it’s the .40. It’s just simple physics.

Smells like well executed Caliber Wars clickbait - but it got me here. Almost like "what's the best oil for my Harley?" works.

But I digress... If it's just "simple physics" - opposed to simple terminal ballistics or perhaps caliber clickbait - then if true we should all take this as a valuable warning.

The warning is that the terminal ballisticians and forensic pathologists employed by the major manufacturers of police service ammunition tell their law enforcement customers that no matter what service caliber an agency chooses and approves, their data coming from shootings with their ammunition tells them there is NO appreciable difference in performance between the calibers. And for that matter, little to none between their standard pressure and +P/+P+ ammunition with the same bullet.

The moral of the story is this: if you believe the author has exposed that they're lying to their police customers, the very last ammunition you should buy (in whatever you carry of whatever caliber you chose) is service ammunition manufactured by those same manufacturers you now know are lying to law enforcement agencies that are their customers.

Find a third party manufacturer that isn't lying to you like Speer, Federal, Winchester, are that there's no difference in effectiveness in caliber. Besides... you might be attacked by The Clay Brick People.

Just sayin' as a cop that got sucked in over 40 years ago by Massad Ayoob proclaiming to American police that the Glaser Safety Slug would strike murder-bent violent criminals down like the very hand of God. Still have one full box of those Glaser Safety Slugs and the magazine article he published to troll us all all in. They were mediocre killers of deer standing there with a broken leg dangling after being hit by a car that had to be put down.

The scales started falling from my eyes regarding LEO gun writers about back then.

 

[Jack K]

Hydra shock ammo never really gets talked about and is getting harder to find in a lot of places. I have a couple .45’s I carry it in.

a lot of the on line vendors have hydra shock, the HST is supposed to be an "upgraded/better" version of hydra shock. not sure its better. i have both, but normally carry the hydra shock

 

[joepic]

a lot of the on line vendors have hydra shock, the HST is supposed to be an "upgraded/better" version of hydra shock. not sure its better. i have both, but normally carry the hydra shock

In the article about the FBI shootout the author made some mistakes.
Dove, Grogan and Risner all carried S+W 459s. Ed Mireles had his shotgun in his hand when he exited his car. Gordon McNeils shotgun was in the back seat.

 

[crkckr]

I will agree with the author that, as long as they're all using the same bullet technology, the .40 and .45 are better than the 9mm, a caliber I'm not a particular fan of unless it's 357 Sig. While true that bullet tech has improved the 9mm, however, that same tech works equally well in other calibers, improving all of them. There is no denying that a bigger hole, no matter how little difference there is, creates an advantage for the shooter. Personally, I'll take every advantage I can get, no matter how small. Which is why my EDC is a 10mm.
Cheers,
crkckr

 

[Old Airborne Dog]

While true that bullet tech has improved the 9mm, however, that same tech works equally well in other calibers, improving all of them.

That could be true if your clear assumption that the exact same amount of research and R&D dollars is put in to the... let's say the big fat slow .45 ACP... as is put into the majority choice of law enforcement: 9mm.

Where did you come by the information that confirmed that research and R&D money and time is equally split between all the service calibers?

Market economics would suggest the most likely approach would be to focus the majority of that research and R&D on the overwhelmingly popular 9mm with the customer market, and then let whatever scraps come out of that be dragged over to the increasingly less popular calibers. Not abandoning the less popular calibers, but putting a lot less time and money into porting research and R&D findings into other calibers - or the same caliber with much greater speeds i.e. 357 Sig.

There is no denying that a bigger hole, no matter how little difference there is, creates an advantage for the shooter. Personally, I'll take every advantage I can get, no matter how small. Which is why my EDC is a 10mm.
Cheers,
crkckr

It does? Why don't the police, anti-terrorist units, etc across the world act on that "everybody knows", kick the 9mm to the curb and all move to the Bigger Hole Forty Five?????

You must exclusively buy your carry ammunition from Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Underwood, etc. There is no way you would trust manufacturers like Federal, Speer, Winchester, etc whose terminal ballisticians and forensic pathologists lie to their customers that there is no real world difference resulting from the size of a 9mm hole or a .45 caliber hole in the lines of police service ammunition they offer to their customers.

Not that I have anything against the 10mm. Quite the opposite. Here in Montana next to Glacier National Park where we regularly have gumbly bears wandering through our yard, I carry a 10mm CBOB loaded with Underwood's 220 gr. WFN hard cast bullets as my Bear Wrench of choice.

However, when I head off into town instead, I don't expect to have a problem with a grumbly bear walking out of Moose's Saloon drunk or carjacking me in the alley where we park behind. So I happily swap out the 10mm Bear Wrench for a much smarter tactical choice carried by the police here and elsewhere, the 9mm.

Beyond that, a happy advantage of being a fat and sassy civvy these days is we all get to carry pretty much whatever we believe to be the best. As the saying goes, "You do you".

Might be a bit of a risk to making proclamations of fact regarding your choices and expecting them to be accepted as fact without any supporting evidence. Especially if they run contrary to what the manufacturers of police service ammunition say.

 

[Axperez]

I have only had to fire a pistol for target practice, thank God. I happen to enjoy shooting .40 S&W better than 9x19 mm..
My EDC is a .40 compact. When it first became legal to carry in your vehicle without a license, I bought a 9 mm. because my weak hand is arthritic, and I needed a pistol I could fire with a crippled hand.

In late 2018 I was trying to decide whether to buy a .40 S&W or a .10 mm for EDC and target shooting. My strong hand can handle both. It was cold the day I made my purchase and my arthritis was acting up in both hands, so I bought a .40. I can shoot .40 all day strong hand, one or two handed. I can get off five shots weak handed before the pain gets to be too much. 9 mm. does not bother as much, I can empty a 12 round magazine weak handed and not have a problem.
If I ever have to fire in anger, I'd rather bet on the harder hitting .40, but I can see that some would prefer to bet on more hits with 9 mm., not to mention having more control with a 9mm. It is our lives on the line and we should be free to use our judgement.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to convince myself that if the doc shoots my bad hand with cortisone, I take my NSAID's, take my turmeric, rub my bad hand with arnica, and wear my shooting gloves and maybe wrist braces maybe I can shoot 10mm..

 

[CCJ]

Video circulating on the internet a while ago depicts a bank robber being shot in the neck (carotid artery?). Blood spurting everywhere in copious streams. Takes him 32-34 seconds to bleed out. An aggressor can do a lot of damage in that amount of time. So, I’m not so sure that blood loss alone is a huge contributor to “stopping power”. I’m no ballistics expert, nor forensic pathologist………..just sharing what was obvious in the video.

Well, shot in the neck with what? 9mm? 30-40 seconds would be expected with a little hand compression to slow the bleeding a bit. To my point, a .40 or .45 would have ruined his day real fast.

 

[CCJ]

I somewhat disagree. A hit with a 9mm that fails would be a failure if hit the same spot with a 45 in all but the minute of occurrences. I mean that little bit more might “cut the line” so to speak but it just doesn’t pan out in real shootings from what I have seen.

People (well real thug criminal types) can take a lot of blunt force teams and live through it. I’ve seen it first hand inside Federal Penitentiaries as well as inmates that have been shot with everything to include 308 rifles and 00 buck 12 gauge with nothing more than a slight limp. I have also seen a ton of shootings as a municipal PD guy outside Memphis so while I do like a 45 it’s not because I feel it’s got any advantage I just can shoot it well and it’s what I like.

My retirement job has eased up the 45 requirement and I am going to my 9mm Sig 226 when I go back to work next month so caliber is a moot point for me but if someone likes it because they are uncomfortable by all means do you!

Glad we have all adequate choices

Well, a lot of criminals are pumped up on drugs, but this not withstanding, I know an emergency room doctor (member our our church) who would tell you that the size of the wound is directly proportional to the amount of trauma inflicted. Yes, many shootings cause wounds that are "peripheral" and cause neither large wound channels or vital organ damage. It is more telling of the values of shot placement than the abilities of a particular caliber. Need to compare apples to apples and resists the "lessons learned" from generalizations.

 

[trader]

That could be true if your clear assumption that the exact same amount of research and R&D dollars is put in to the... let's say the big fat slow .45 ACP... as is put into the majority choice of law enforcement: 9mm.

Where did you come by the information that confirmed that research and R&D money and time is equally split between all the service calibers?

Market economics would suggest the most likely approach would be to focus the majority of that research and R&D on the overwhelmingly popular 9mm with the customer market, and then let whatever scraps come out of that be dragged over to the increasingly less popular calibers. Not abandoning the less popular calibers, but putting a lot less time and money into porting research and R&D findings into other calibers - or the same caliber with much greater speeds i.e. 357 Sig.



It does? Why don't the police, anti-terrorist units, etc across the world act on that "everybody knows", kick the 9mm to the curb and all move to the Bigger Hole Forty Five?????

You must exclusively buy your carry ammunition from Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Underwood, etc. There is no way you would trust manufacturers like Federal, Speer, Winchester, etc whose terminal ballisticians and forensic pathologists lie to their customers that there is no real world difference resulting from the size of a 9mm hole or a .45 caliber hole in the lines of police service ammunition they offer to their customers.

Not that I have anything against the 10mm. Quite the opposite. Here in Montana next to Glacier National Park where we regularly have gumbly bears wandering through our yard, I carry a 10mm CBOB loaded with Underwood's 220 gr. WFN hard cast bullets as my Bear Wrench of choice.

However, when I head off into town instead, I don't expect to have a problem with a grumbly bear walking out of Moose's Saloon drunk or carjacking me in the alley where we park behind. So I happily swap out the 10mm Bear Wrench for a much smarter tactical choice carried by the police here and elsewhere, the 9mm.

Beyond that, a happy advantage of being a fat and sassy civvy these days is we all get to carry pretty much whatever we believe to be the best. As the saying goes, "You do you".

Might be a bit of a risk to making proclamations of fact regarding your choices and expecting them to be accepted as fact without any supporting evidence. Especially if they run contrary to what the manufacturers of police service ammunition say.

appreciate most of what you until, "swapping out the 10mm for a much smart tactical choice.....the 9mm" why is that smarter? Carrying a full size 10 with the same mag capacity as your average 9mm isn't a lesser tactical choice. It's a better one. There is a reason so many police shootings have mag dumps on the perp, it's bc the 9mm is an adequate round, not a great one. 780 ft lbs vs 340 impacting the same areas WILL do the job faster and better.

 

[Kravi]

Thanks Scott! Great article. I'm onboard with everything you said. I invested heavily into the .40 early in my career. I own two in that caliber, a Springfield XD Subcompact and a Glock 23. If I was starting over again today, I'd probably go with the 9mm for off duty carry. The .40 is still slightly superior, but 9mm ammo is quite a bit cheaper, more available and ballistically the 9mm has improved considerably since that time. Though I'm retired now, our department still shoots the .40

 

[CCJ]

Heck, I sold our Hellcat and bought a Ronin .45 ACP Commander And honestly, I'm thinking about selling it. Pretty gun, the Ronin, but I have a failure to fire on nearly every mag. Not sure if it's ammo or what, but I hate pulling that trigger and then... nothing. Firing pin is indenting the primer square in the middle, but no "boom."

If you haven't already, take those factory magazines and toss them. Buy a set of Ed Brown, Wilson combat. This would take care of a lot of feeding issues. But the failure to fire is telling us that you have a weak firing pin spring, bad firing pin, or the rounds are not head spacing correctly (or maybe the rounds are cheap junk?). None the less, try a different brand first. If things get better then we know it what you are shooting. If not, send the gun in for repairs or find a good gun smith that can take a look at it. I think this is a very fixable issue. Ummm, did you clean and lube prior to shooting. Good practice to do this on all new guns as the oil can oxidize and stiffen as the gun sits on the shelf.

 

[cavpilot]

One of the big problems in the infamous Miami shootout (in addition to not notifying Miami-Dade law enforcement about the stop) was the use of revolvers - the agent closest to the suspect driver said he pointed his .357 (a 2 1/2” S&W if memory serves me right) at him, fires and missed. Easy to do when pointing in an adrenalized state - the “instinctive” point and the barrel point are 30 - 35 degrees apart. You can miss at 3 yds very easily.
Switching to autos helped overcome that mechanical issue.
Regarding the current article, bigger bullet = bigger effect. Felt recoil is really only a factor at the range, and can easily be trained for. In defensive shootouts the good guys have never - to my research - said anything about recoil. It’s simply not an appreciable factor in actual stress shootings - unlike tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, tachy psyche and initial unawareness of wound pain.