Another p320 "accidental discharge"

[Old_Me]

I spend a lot of time on Sig Talk and those guys are the first ones to complain about a Sig pistol and do so with aplomb. It just stuns me how many people think the P365 is a massively flawed pistol, which sales seem to indicate anything but. The P320, however, is rarely dissed - in fact, it is exalted because it is so easy to modify and improve upon. I can’t ever recall reading of an issue of anyone’s P320 going if by itself, and yet here are these lawsuits which primarily represent Police Officers. There are also dozens of videos on YouTube where we’ll-meaning lunkheads have tried to get their P320s to fire How is it that so many cops have had problems while the cash paying owners like you and me seem to be trouble free? Something just doesn’t add up and I honestly don’t think the issue is on Sig’s end. Is there a firearms version of an ambulance chaser?

you know what..??

you "sparked" something in me....when you mentioned police officers...

with all the anti-police, defund, abolish the police, lawsuits against them for even looking at a freaking THUG the wrong way.......

i wonder if these lawsuits are to pad thier early retirement, when the go out on disability..??

you know, escape the heat and fires..??????

not too many could "want to be" a cop nowadays, with all the crap against them....

let's not forget too, that dumbass cop that killed Floyd, started all the rioting. had he not done what he had done, all this crap, wouldn't even have happened.

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

I spend a lot of time on Sig Talk and those guys are the first ones to complain about a Sig pistol and do so with aplomb. It just stuns me how many people think the P365 is a massively flawed pistol, which sales seem to indicate anything but. The P320, however, is rarely dissed - in fact, it is exalted because it is so easy to modify and improve upon. I can’t ever recall reading of an issue of anyone’s P320 going if by itself, and yet here are these lawsuits which primarily represent Police Officers. There are also dozens of videos on YouTube where we’ll-meaning lunkheads have tried to get their P320s to fire How is it that so many cops have had problems while the cash paying owners like you and me seem to be trouble free? Something just doesn’t add up and I honestly don’t think the issue is on Sig’s end. Is there a firearms version of an ambulance chaser?

I agree 100%! I test all if my guns by (in keeping with safe proceedings) will hit the slide, grip, trigger guard and various points on each gun too check if an "accidental" firing will/could happen. I do this especially on adjustable triggers!. I'm not sure what other manufacturers have had with or supposed issue like the 700 (I don't own any Rems of any model)? You know that gun was just lying there and went off is and would be difficult to reinact.

 

[dad]

you know what..??

you "sparked" something in me....when you mentioned police officers...

with all the anti-police, defund, abolish the police, lawsuits against them for even looking at a freaking THUG the wrong way.......

i wonder if these lawsuits are to pad thier early retirement, when the go out on disability..??

you know, escape the heat and fires..??????

not too many could "want to be" a cop nowadays, with all the crap against them....

let's not forget too, that dumbass cop that killed Floyd, started all the rioting. had he not done what he had done, all this crap, wouldn't even have happened.

I was raised to know and respect LEO. Knew and was known by first name to many over the years but always said Officer first. Now days things are so different. But my point being I almost always ask in conversation and sometimes go out of my way to ask how often the officer practices with his duty weapon. Almost always the response is when I have to qualify. To me that is beyond belief. It isnt just the officers life but the lives of the people he or she has sworn to protect. And I have never asked a female officer. But to me that would be like a carpenter not knowing how to use a hammer.. Anyone had a similar experience?

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

you know what..??

you "sparked" something in me....when you mentioned police officers...

with all the anti-police, defund, abolish the police, lawsuits against them for even looking at a freaking THUG the wrong way.......

i wonder if these lawsuits are to pad thier early retirement, when the go out on disability..??

you know, escape the heat and fires..??????

not too many could "want to be" a cop nowadays, with all the crap against them....

let's not forget too, that dumbass cop that killed Floyd, started all the rioting. had he not done what he had done, all this crap, wouldn't even have happened.

I would hold off on the summation, unless you have seen the coroner's report, complete video with audio and other info about starting the "officer killed him"! I know I haven't seen and or heard all. Yes it's terrible that it happened, but a whole lot more "quick" reporters with cell phones out there that was late on record button. The officer .......... well action he took can be debatable. There was more across the country and that partuculiar in incident might have well been the "tip of the iceberg"? I'm not condoning all of his action(s). The uprise of haters has been astronomical and over publicized.

 

[Old_Me]

I would hold off on the summation, unless you have seen the coroner's report, complete video with audio and other info about starting the "officer killed him"! I know I haven't seen and or heard all. Yes it's terrible that it happened, but a whole lot more "quick" reporters with cell phones out there that was late on record button. The officer .......... well action he took can be debatable. There was more across the country and that partuculiar in incident might have well been the "tip of the iceberg"? I'm not condoning all of his action(s). The uprise of haters has been astronomical and over publicized.

"On April 20, 2021, the jury found Chauvin guilty of all charges, including second-degree intentional murder, third-degree murder, and second-degree manslaughter"

i think that pretty much sums it up....

the EX-officer, killed Floyd, and from there, the riots took place. i think as you say, it might have been the tip of the iceberg, and the straw, that broke the camels back.

Murder of George Floyd - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Old_Me]

I was raised to know and respect LEO. Knew and was known by first name to many over the years but always said Officer first. Now days things are so different. But my point being I almost always ask in conversation and sometimes go out of my way to ask how often the officer practices with his duty weapon. Almost always the response is when I have to qualify. To me that is beyond belief. It isnt just the officers life but the lives of the people he or she has sworn to protect. And I have never asked a female officer. But to me that would be like a carpenter not knowing how to use a hammer.. Anyone had a similar experience?

as i have done so for all my life. but i am getting at, maybe the current cops are just plain sick and tired of the lack of support from the political parties that only cater to the constituent's, looking for future votes.

i just cannot see any young man or woman, wanting to get into law enforcement, to be working under such conditions.

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

as i have done so for all my life. but i am getting at, maybe the current cops are just plain sick and tired of the lack of support from the political parties that only cater to the constituent's, looking for future votes.

i just cannot see any young man or woman, wanting to get into law enforcement, to be working under such conditions.

I 2nd that!

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

as i have done so for all my life. but i am getting at, maybe the current cops are just plain sick and tired of the lack of support from the political parties that only cater to the constituent's, looking for future votes.

i just cannot see any young man or woman, wanting to get into law enforcement, to be working under such conditions.

The points or views we've taken and did so without injury! Could this be a trend for others too follow? I thank you for your support!

 

[jumpinjoe]

I believe Mike at Tactical Considerations explained a longer sear was installed, which lengthens the trigger pull.

I think I also understood they (Sig/recall) also replaced the trigger with one of significantly less weight. It seems that if the gun hit the floor on the backstrap at a particular angle, the weight of the trigger could by virtue of that weight, and with no trigger safety tab blocking it, actually cause an unintentional discharge.

I'm not a Sig owner so cannot swear by this, just my understanding.

 

[jumpinjoe]

I remember the saying that you could conserve water by showering with your girlfriend or wife. So not sure if the quality time together makes up for the actual amount of water used.

I have tried to conserve water many, many times by this very action ..... however it always seems to be that the time it takes for us to shower together is far longer than the total time of the two of us showering separately. I just don't understand why that is !!!! LOL! LOL!

I even showered with a fat girl once, and it still took longer ..... not quite as long, but .... oh, never mind.

 

[jumpinjoe]

as i have done so for all my life. but i am getting at, maybe the current cops are just plain sick and tired of the lack of support from the political parties that only cater to the constituent's, looking for future votes.

i just cannot see any young man or woman, wanting to get into law enforcement, to be working under such conditions.

Hard to argue with this !!!

 

[wmg1299]

I spend a lot of time on Sig Talk and those guys are the first ones to complain about a Sig pistol and do so with aplomb. It just stuns me how many people think the P365 is a massively flawed pistol, which sales seem to indicate anything but. The P320, however, is rarely dissed - in fact, it is exalted because it is so easy to modify and improve upon. I can’t ever recall reading of an issue of anyone’s P320 going if by itself, and yet here are these lawsuits which primarily represent Police Officers. There are also dozens of videos on YouTube where we’ll-meaning lunkheads have tried to get their P320s to fire How is it that so many cops have had problems while the cash paying owners like you and me seem to be trouble free? Something just doesn’t add up and I honestly don’t think the issue is on Sig’s end. Is there a firearms version of an ambulance chaser.

The only major difference between police 320's and privately owned 320's that comes to mind is the manner in which they are carried. Wearing a pistol 8-12 hours at a time in an external duty holster during a patrol shift exposes the pistol to different situations than other guns. In general, pistols carried by patrol officers are exposed to significantly more vibration and impact than other guns. Patrol officers spend the majority of their shift in a running vehicle, often with their holster constantly rubbing against a console or seat belt. The amount of daily vibration isn't significant, but it adds up over time.

Active officers will also find themselves in more grappling situations than normal armed citizens. Even in situations that don't go to the ground, impacts with walls/trees/cars/etc. are fairly common. Again, this type of impact and vibration can add up over time. If a particular part of a trigger assembly was sensitive to vibration, I would expect that component to fail in a police handgun before civilian-owned models.

I am still a bit skeptical of these claims, but it is concerning that we are seeing so many. I would like to know if these officers are employed by large or small agencies. During my time with a large agency, the department armorer stripped our weapons for a complete inspection every two years. Tolerances were checked and any worn out components were replaced. I do not know if smaller departments have this level of oversight.

 

[SimonRL]

In the original lawsuit the Dallas Police were involved. I’m completely stumped by all this. The actual lack of substantive info on either side of the fence is suspect.

 

[SoNic]

I have the P365XL and the Hellcat as my two striker-fire pistols. Looking at their internals, the Hellcat striker pin is more related to the Glock ones:
- is not fully under tension. To fire, the sear first "pulls back" the pin an extra distance, before releasing it
- it has a "ledge" that prevents the sear to drop without pulling the trigger (because of a drop)
- it has the firing block acting in front part of the pin, separated from the sear action. So even if the back of the of the firing pin breaks (and it happened in at least one video), the firing pin will not just fly away and hit the primer.

On my P365, two of two safeties are done at the back of the firing pin, and instead of a hard ledge, there is just a spring. The striker pin is also fully under tension. I can see how, if that end breaks, the firing pin would just hit the primer. It's something that made me prefer the Hellcat form my EDC and leave the 365 for "in house defense" and target use.

This is a video that shows the P365 versus Glock (Hellcat is the same like the Glock).

Looking at the P320, its mechanism it looks very similar to my P365 one. So IDK... might be something in all this. Might not.

This is also a good video about the aspects of internal safeties (or lack of) specifically on P320:

 

[HayesGreener]

As I stated in an earlier thread, I investigated a few of those "it just went off" incidents with various guns, and it was determined that somehow, something pulled the trigger to make it fire. Although it is possible for mechanical things to fail, I am highly suspicious of claims about the P320 just going off.

Many of us will recall that when Glock first hit the police market, there were a spate of negligent discharges resulting in injury or death. Also a number of "Glock Leg" incidents where the officer shot himself while drawing or re-holstering. Many police administrators, including myself, wanted nothing to do with Glock as a result. The problem came from officers transitioning from double action revolvers with 10-12 pound double action triggers, where they were in the habit of having their finger on the trigger, to a Glock that came with a 3.5 pound trigger. Glock saved themselves by increasing the trigger weight, and emphasizing training to KEEP YOUR DAMN FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER. There was nothing wrong with the Glock action, it was a training issue.

Just 3 days ago, a Florida Corrections recruit killed herself by a negligent discharge during firearms training. The details are not out yet, but they use Glocks, and I will make a good bet that her trigger finger did the deed.

 

[David N.]

As I stated in an earlier thread, I investigated a few of those "it just went off" incidents with various guns, and it was determined that somehow, something pulled the trigger to make it fire. Although it is possible for mechanical things to fail, I am highly suspicious of claims about the P320 just going off.

Many of us will recall that when Glock first hit the police market, there were a spate of negligent discharges resulting in injury or death. Also a number of "Glock Leg" incidents where the officer shot himself while drawing or re-holstering. Many police administrators, including myself, wanted nothing to do with Glock as a result. The problem came from officers transitioning from double action revolvers with 10-12 pound double action triggers, where they were in the habit of having their finger on the trigger, to a Glock that came with a 3.5 pound trigger. Glock saved themselves by increasing the trigger weight, and emphasizing training to KEEP YOUR DAMN FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER. There was nothing wrong with the Glock action, it was a training issue.

Just 3 days ago, a Florida Corrections recruit killed herself by a negligent discharge during firearms training. The details are not out yet, but they use Glocks, and I will make a good bet that her trigger finger did the deed.

What are your thoughts on the video above mentioning a poor holster design as a possible contributing factor?

 

[HayesGreener]

What are your thoughts on the video above mentioning a poor holster design as a possible contributing factor?

Absolutely the holster design can contribute to negligent discharges, and I have read of several cases where this happened, including with revolvers. Procuring a new model firearm for a police department involves a systems approach, to include magazines, pouches, replacement parts, and most importantly the holster. The holster must be designed for the specific model firearm and requires a lot of testing and evaluation. The big holster manufacturers understand this, as they are exposed to great liability if their holster results in unintentional discharge. Training with the holster is a key component. I instruct all my students to select a high quality holster that is made for their specific firearm. A 19.95 nylon holster or a "one size fits all" holster is an unintentional discharge, or weapon loss, or both, waiting to happen.

 

[SoNic]

Another video showing how a specific brand of retention holster might be a bad thing to have:

 

[HayesGreener]

Another video showing how a specific brand of retention holster might be a bad thing to have:

Many LE agencies use Blackhawk Serpa Level III holsters with no issues. We use them in training, because it is what most of our client agencies use. I also like the Safariland Level III holsters and have several, but won't engage in Ford/Chevy arguments about them. Both have mechanisms that require a lot of practice repetitions to master.

The video of Tex Grebner shooting himself in a CQB drill is a great example of what not to do when drawing, but you can't blame the holster. He had to take the safety off, put his finger on the trigger, and point the gun at his leg during the draw in order to accomplish that. He did not know what he was doing and admitted it was a new holster. The truth is, he did not train with the holster, and he damn sure should have known better than to disengage the safety on his 1911 before the muzzle was pointed at the target. There are unique training protocols with the 1911 and you should not be trying quick draws with a loaded 1911 before you have them mastered. It was an unsafe practice and he probably was eventually going to have an ND no matter the brand or type of holster. But it illustrates the importance of dryfire training with your gun and holster and many repetitions of the 4-step draw before going to the range.

As an aside, it is revealing how many shooters put their finger on the trigger before the gun is pointed at the target. I have had experienced shooters adamantly deny it when I told them they were getting on the trigger too soon, right up to the point where I showed them the video of them doing it. It's especially frequent with guys my age. Bad habits are hard to break, especially if you don't realize you have those bad habits.

 

[SoNic]

There are unique training protocols with the 1911 and you should not be trying quick draws with a loaded 1911 before you have them mastered.

I agree.
Personally I love the looks and feel of the 1911 guns, but when I first pressed the hair trigger on a Kimber (empty, at a LGS) I realized that's not something that I would have time to learn how to use safely. Especially with the weird (for me) way they work in general (thumb safety, removed magazine, rear safety).
I stick with my poly, no thumb safety, guns.

However the point he is making, and I agree with, is that those holsters are something that can fail in a stress situation for someone that is not trained with them enough.
And also he said that the Level III holsters are not the same as what normal people buy at Wally.