Armed IRS agents raid, temporarily close gun shop

[Bassbob]

“In addition to the Form 4473s, the IRS agents also seized all point of sale (POS) software records and other financial documents during their 10-hour visit. Before handing over the documents, Mr. Van Hoose contacted ATF supervisor Kirk Nelson and asked if he had to turn over the Form 4473s to the IRS agents Since the documents were not listed on the search warrant. Nelson initially told Van Hoose that he was not required to turn over the documents but later recanted his statement.”

IRS Agents Seize 1000s Of Form 4473s From A Montana Gun Shop

The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) served a warrant at a Montana gun store and seized 1000s of Form 4473s even though the forms were not listed on the search warrant.

www.ammoland.com

 

[KillerFord1977]

-Straw purchases
-Not reporting of proper sales of Class 3 items
- NFA tax stamp issues
Would all be reasons for IRS to be involved w a 4473

 

[Bassbob]

-Straw purchases
-Not reporting of proper sales of Class 3 items
- NFA tax stamp issues
Would all be reasons for IRS to be involved w a 4473

The ATF enforces those not the IRS. The attorney for the state of Montana agrees.

I can’t believe you jump to that over believing what Biden as well as every single gun rights organization told you they were going to do a couple months ago.

 

[KillerFord1977]

The ATF enforces those not the IRS. The attorney for the state of Montana agrees.

I can’t believe you jump to that over believing what Biden as well as every single gun rights organization told you they were going to do a couple months ago.

The IRS most certainly has jurisdiction over NFA stamp / Class 3 issues.


“Federal firearms taxes are some of the small group of excise taxes in the Internal Revenue Code. They tend to only concern gun importers, manufacturers and dealers, but the ranks of dealers are growing. There are actually three taxing regimes”

 

[Bassbob]

Ok. Since it’s normal, tell me another time when the IRS raided a gun store and made off with 13 years worth of 4473s.

 

[Grayfox]

I think everybody is jumping to conclusions just because its a gun shop.
From the story BassBob posted: "The agents had a search warrant and claimed that Mr. Van Hoose underreported millions of dollars of income from his business, a claim Mr. Hoose vehemently denies."
So it ain't about guns, its about tax fraud. I'm guessing the 4473s are to prove more sales than reported.

 

[Bassbob]

I think everybody is jumping to conclusions just because its a gun shop.
From the story BassBob posted: "The agents had a search warrant and claimed that Mr. Van Hoose underreported millions of dollars of income from his business, a claim Mr. Hoose vehemently denies."
So it ain't about guns, its about tax fraud. I'm guessing the 4473s are to prove more sales than reported.

Even if that were true, since when does the IRS arm up and raid people ? And you can look all you want but the IRS seizing 4473s is unprecedented.

Nothing to see here, move along.

 

[Grayfox]

Even if that were true, since when does the IRS arm up and raid people ? And you can look all you want but the IRS seizing 4473s is unprecedented.

The IRS's Criminal Investigation Division has been armed for many years. One of CID's regular duties it arrest tax cheats. However, there have been a number of reports in the last couple of years about how CID has been upping both firepower and manpower. This has been worrying many people and I see their point.
And seizing 4473s may be unprecedented, but you gotta admit its a good way to compare actual sales to reported sales.

 

[HayesGreener]

All federal criminal investigators are armed. They are federal LEO's and deal with some dangerous criminals.
These are not the people who call you in for an audit-those are auditors. IRS CID agents are relatively small in number, around 2000 in total.

We don't have enough info about the investigation. All I can do is speculate. I want to shy away from uninformed judgments about the case

 

[SimonRL]

Any of you homos touch any of my stuff, I kill ya.


Just watched that movie last night for the first time in probably 20 years.


I still say it's BS. Some guys on an internet message board are privvy to way less information than a US congressional representative. And there is no situation where the IRS seizing 4473s is legit.

I watched it on Friday and my wife incredulously said What are you watching. I replied - A Classic. It must be one of the most quotable films going. That’s a fact, Jack!

 

[SimonRL]

GOA Condemns IRS Raid on Montana Gun Shop | GOA

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE June 19, 2023 Washington, D.C. – Gun Owners of America issued the following statements following a raid last week by IRS agents on a gun shop in Great Falls, Montana. The feds seized ATF Forms 4473 from the store, which contain personally identifying information of firearm...

www.gunowners.org

Let’s face it, that’s hardly breaking news.

 

[Bassbob]

The IRS's Criminal Investigation Division has been armed for many years. One of CID's regular duties it arrest tax cheats. However, there have been a number of reports in the last couple of years about how CID has been upping both firepower and manpower. This has been worrying many people and I see their point.
And seizing 4473s may be unprecedented, but you gotta admit its a good way to compare actual sales to reported sales.

It's also illegal.

 

[Bassbob]

Let’s face it, that’s hardly breaking news.

Never said it was Simon. It is however what I predicted yesterday. I'm curious how many EX- NRA members who are now loyal GOA members share their concern about this "incident".

 

[Bassbob]

All federal criminal investigators are armed. They are federal LEO's and deal with some dangerous criminals.
These are not the people who call you in for an audit-those are auditors. IRS CID agents are relatively small in number, around 2000 in total.

We don't have enough info about the investigation. All I can do is speculate. I want to shy away from uninformed judgments about the case

And you think we will get the information we actually need ? Come on Hayes, you know better. You will get the info Merrick Garland gives you and I assure you it will not be a rebuke of the IRS or any of the LEO orgs. that ran interference.

I predict they find a way to put this guy out of business. Based on the many other FFLs who have recently lost their livelihoods over a single simple clerical error, I suspect they will find an I that wasn't dotted somewhere and use it as pretense to justify the IRS seizing information on 13 years worth of guns and gun owners, tens of thousands of 4473s. I also predict some here won't bat an eye.

 

[Bassbob]

I think everybody is jumping to conclusions just because its a gun shop.
From the story BassBob posted: "The agents had a search warrant and claimed that Mr. Van Hoose underreported millions of dollars of income from his business, a claim Mr. Hoose vehemently denies."
So it ain't about guns, its about tax fraud. I'm guessing the 4473s are to prove more sales than reported.

Warrants are VERY specific. And guess what wasn't listed on the warrant ? 4473s. I wonder why ? I mean if it's relevant and the IRS has every right to have them why couldn't they get a judge to sign off on a warrant for them ?

 

[Belt Fed]

I really shouldn't get involved in this but i will relate a story when i was buying class 3 weapons back in the early 80;s. I had several tell me the ATF was going to kick down my door one day for having those. i said they are legal and they sign the papers and OK it. they would say yeah they know right where to find them when they come after them. i would say yes they do but everything is legit and legal they can't do anything. well so far not one visit from them.

I mean if everything is on the up and up and legal, they are not going to bother you. or they haven't yet. now i will say this administration is liable to do anything to get their way. i don't know what the deal is with the raid and i certainly can't comment as i have no clue what happened.

Now going to shoot them is another story, can't tell you how many glocks i have had aimed at me coming out of an area i was shooting or them coming to me. Now here's where i got in trouble on another site a long time ago. when the officers would ask to see my papers on the guns i always said no problem and showed them. now the anti cop people said i should tell them get a warrant or something like i don't need to show you that.

People would call them after hearing the automatic fire and naturally they have to show up and investigate. now why would i tell them something stupid like get a warrant when i have the papers on me. all i have to do is let them see it and we are on our way, but mouth off and i go to jail. i may be stupid but i ain't stupid enough to mouth off to an officer that has a gun pointed at me. Now most were nice and ask nice, was a couple assholes. some wanted to stay and watch after they seen everything was legit. i even let them shoot them.

But i'm not one to mouth off to an officer doing his job, now if they bust my door in a 2 in the morning that's a different deal, but for one to show up and ask politely for something that i should have with me is not a big deal to me. Far as the glocks aimed at me i didn't blame them back then as we had some big belt fed machine guns, and i'm sure the noise was loud. i will admit nowadays i would be a little nervous cause some of these new guys are trigger happy. I solved all the problems by calling the nearest sheriff and telling them what i was going to do if they had people call in.

OK, we will see if i said something wrong. lol I got my fire suit on.

 

[Bassbob]

I really shouldn't get involved in this but i will relate a story when i was buying class 3 weapons back in the early 80;s. I had several tell me the ATF was going to kick down my door one day for having those. i said they are legal and they sign the papers and OK it. they would say yeah they know right where to find them when they come after them. i would say yes they do but everything is legit and legal they can't do anything. well so far not one visit from them.

I mean if everything is on the up and up and legal, they are not going to bother you. or they haven't yet. now i will say this administration is liable to do anything to get their way. i don't know what the deal is with the raid and i certainly can't comment as i have no clue what happened.

Now going to shoot them is another story, can't tell you how many glocks i have had aimed at me coming out of an area i was shooting or them coming to me. Now here's where i got in trouble on another site a long time ago. when the officers would ask to see my papers on the guns i always said no problem and showed them. now the anti cop people said i should tell them get a warrant or something like i don't need to show you that.

People would call them after hearing the automatic fire and naturally they have to show up and investigate. now why would i tell them something stupid like get a warrant when i have the papers on me. all i have to do is let them see it and we are on our way, but mouth off and i go to jail. i may be stupid but i ain't stupid enough to mouth off to an officer that has a gun pointed at me. Now most were nice and ask nice, was a couple assholes. some wanted to stay and watch after they seen everything was legit. i even let them shoot them.

But i'm not one to mouth off to an officer doing his job, now if they bust my door in a 2 in the morning that's a different deal, but for one to show up and ask politely for something that i should have with me is not a big deal to me. Far as the glocks aimed at me i didn't blame them back then as we had some big belt fed machine guns, and i'm sure the noise was loud. i will admit nowadays i would be a little nervous cause some of these new guys are trigger happy. I solved all the problems by calling the nearest sheriff and telling them what i was going to do if they had people call in.

OK, we will see if i said something wrong. lol I got my fire suit on.

No one is more cooperative with LEO than me. I have more friends that are LEO than I can count. I train with them, I train under them, yada, yada, yada. Of course everything you said makes sense and is exactly what I would do if I could afford to have all the cool toys you have.

That said, there is a big difference between the scenario you are describing and the scenario that went down in Montana. Or Randy Weaver. Or those goofy bastards in Wyoming or wherever a few years ago. W're not talking about some cops wanting to make sure you have your paperwork. We are talking about a government agency with a history of being weaponized ( that could be any 3 letter agency these days though) confiscating 4473s. Why am I the only guy here who seems to understand the ramifications of the IRS beginning to confiscate 4473s from gun dealers ? Biden just hired 87,000 more of these people. Biden directed the head of the DOJ to target gun dealers. This is all provably true and many of you have participated in conversations about it. Now we are going to normalize the IRS seizing 4473s from gun dealers ? And no one seems to think that's a problem ?

I think I must be in the twilight zone. I knew this morning when I got halfway to work before realizing I didn't even have a knife on me that today was going to be a F'ed up day. About noon I fell about 4 feet, hitting the steel on my trailer on the way down, off the back of my work truck and I can barely move right now. I should have turned around this morning and went back home and called in a week of vacation. The world is spinning backwards on it's axis or something.

 

[KillerFord1977]

I really shouldn't get involved in this but i will relate a story when i was buying class 3 weapons back in the early 80;s. I had several tell me the ATF was going to kick down my door one day for having those. i said they are legal and they sign the papers and OK it. they would say yeah they know right where to find them when they come after them. i would say yes they do but everything is legit and legal they can't do anything. well so far not one visit from them.

I mean if everything is on the up and up and legal, they are not going to bother you. or they haven't yet. now i will say this administration is liable to do anything to get their way. i don't know what the deal is with the raid and i certainly can't comment as i have no clue what happened.

Now going to shoot them is another story, can't tell you how many glocks i have had aimed at me coming out of an area i was shooting or them coming to me. Now here's where i got in trouble on another site a long time ago. when the officers would ask to see my papers on the guns i always said no problem and showed them. now the anti cop people said i should tell them get a warrant or something like i don't need to show you that.

People would call them after hearing the automatic fire and naturally they have to show up and investigate. now why would i tell them something stupid like get a warrant when i have the papers on me. all i have to do is let them see it and we are on our way, but mouth off and i go to jail. i may be stupid but i ain't stupid enough to mouth off to an officer that has a gun pointed at me. Now most were nice and ask nice, was a couple assholes. some wanted to stay and watch after they seen everything was legit. i even let them shoot them.

But i'm not one to mouth off to an officer doing his job, now if they bust my door in a 2 in the morning that's a different deal, but for one to show up and ask politely for something that i should have with me is not a big deal to me. Far as the glocks aimed at me i didn't blame them back then as we had some big belt fed machine guns, and i'm sure the noise was loud. i will admit nowadays i would be a little nervous cause some of these new guys are trigger happy. I solved all the problems by calling the nearest sheriff and telling them what i was going to do if they had people call in.

OK, we will see if i said something wrong. lol I got my fire suit on.

Sounds legit and good practice to me.
I’m just upset you didnt adopt me

 

[ECS686]

GOA Condemns IRS Raid on Montana Gun Shop | GOA

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE June 19, 2023 Washington, D.C. – Gun Owners of America issued the following statements following a raid last week by IRS agents on a gun shop in Great Falls, Montana. The feds seized ATF Forms 4473 from the store, which contain personally identifying information of firearm...

www.gunowners.org

Is this the same GOA that only represents paying members as far as the Brace ruling?

Yeah GOA must see some membership drives coming if they act outraged! Just like the Montana AG strumming votes but acting mad!

 

[Belt Fed]

Why am I the only guy here who seems to understand the ramifications of the IRS beginning to confiscate 4473s from gun dealers ?

I see what you are saying and understand, this biden bunch is not to be trusted. but like i said i don't have a clue what happened at that gun dealer so i can't comment.

Hope you get healed up quick, being stoved up from a fall sucks. hopefully nothing got broken or pulled.