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Ayoob: Is the .45 Obsolete?

I've been sold on the 1911 ever since I first qualified marksman in the USN. I do love shooting my XD-9 Tactical though, as it truly feels like an extension of my hand when firing. I went to the 9 when ammo became short in supply, costly to buy, and when I started teaching my daughters to shoot, since they found it much easier to handle the 9.
Of course, it doesn't matter much here in NJ, since you can't carry either.
 
Flyboy514 said:
I've been sold on the 1911 ever since I first qualified marksman in the USN. I do love shooting my XD-9 Tactical though, as it truly feels like an extension of my hand when firing. I went to the 9 when ammo became short in supply, costly to buy, and when I started teaching my daughters to shoot, since they found it much easier to handle the 9.
Of course, it doesn't matter much here in NJ, since you can't carry either.
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I feel ya, I'm in Commiefornia, everything's illegal here. My nightstand gun is a Springy 9mm XD sub w/Streamlight light/laser. I love it too.
 
.45 ACP, .45 Colt, .450 Bushmaster and .45-70 Gov. These are my (4) primary calibers. See any similarity? ;) It's not that I don't have many others, but for for home defense, carry, deer hunting, bear hunting and vehicle stopping, these are my go-to's. The only other caliber I really use for all of the above is a .380 LCP for deep carry or in shorts for summertime.
 
My take is a bit different. It is not so much the caliber that is so critical as to where you place the round is. You cannot miss fast enough to with the fight and you can't get through everything with periphery hits either. It takes a solid center mass hit into a vital area to end the fight as quicly as possible. So to me the critical caliber issue is simple. Which one can YOU HIT WITH.

Some folks can't handle the 45, and some believe it or not can't handle the snappy recoil of a hot 9mm round. IMO, and I mean that as pure opinion, You MUST hit to win. A center mass with a 22 LR is better than a graze with a 45.

There is also a lot of discussion regarding heavy clothing. Yup a lot of HP rounds will fill up with material and become a solid round. There are other options than a simple HP as well. I did an impromtu test with CCI 45 hollow points (the flying ashtray) many years ago. I could NOT make them expand. The gilding metal was too strong to upset and every one I tried acted just like a FMJRN. Hornady makes wonderful defensive ammo with a plastic nose to defeat clothing plugging. Using a semi or full wadcutter (there are my long ago wheel gun days showing up) can also have greater impact and tissue disruption than a RN slug.

In short, use the best weapons you can afford and can hit center mass with using the best ammunition you can afford. For me in 9mm that means the Hornady critical defense load. I don't carry the 45 due to weight and arthritis and the distrust for over penetration of ball rounds. In a snubby revolver I carry gold dot duty ammo.
 
I heartily agree with you Tanker. A handgun is primarily a defensive weapon and "put downs" are always subject to variability such as the tango's mental state, intoxication on whatever, degree of resolve etc. Solid torso or head shots are the only thing between coming in first or second in a gunfight. Train, train, train. I'm on a range at least once a month training. Anyone who buys and gun and doesn't train is setting themselves up for 2nd place!!!
 
Spectre FE said:
Those who say a 9 is better than a 45 are people who have never actually seen what each do. I was unfortunate enough to see both in a real life situation back in the late 90’s. A guy (likely high on drugs) charged sheriffs deputy’s with a baseball bat both drew their weapons one having a 9, the other a 45… the aggressor took three rounds of 9 to the chest and was still coming, one round of 45 put him on his back and that was that. People can say what they will about each which are both quality calibers but mass vs speed, the laws of physics don’t lie. To each their own for their personal situation but it’s the 45 for me!
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You do realize the physics formula is F = MA^2 right? That's force equals mass times acceleration SQUARED.

That means speed has exponentially more effect on force than mass.
 
The 45 round has been a proven man-stopper since WW I. So, the smaller 9 and 40, naturally, would inspire more rounds for a given pistol.
The concern of lower ammo count with the 45 relative to the other, smaller calibered pistols is a valid concern. One school of thought: the 45 is a man-stopper with much fewer penetrated rounds needed compared to smaller caliber rounds for the same center-of-mass area.

However, with all that said, I recently purchased an FNX 45, which is wonderfully made, and it holds 15 rounds in the clip. It’s not heavy nor obnoxiously large. I have medium-sized hands and it fits well.

This should take care of any concerns that a 45 pistol has a lack of fire power.
 
Old Tanker said:
My take is a bit different. It is not so much the caliber that is so critical as to where you place the round is. You cannot miss fast enough to with the fight and you can't get through everything with periphery hits either. It takes a solid center mass hit into a vital area to end the fight as quicly as possible. So to me the critical caliber issue is simple. Which one can YOU HIT WITH.

Some folks can't handle the 45, and some believe it or not can't handle the snappy recoil of a hot 9mm round. IMO, and I mean that as pure opinion, You MUST hit to win. A center mass with a 22 LR is better than a graze with a 45.

There is also a lot of discussion regarding heavy clothing. Yup a lot of HP rounds will fill up with material and become a solid round. There are other options than a simple HP as well. I did an impromtu test with CCI 45 hollow points (the flying ashtray) many years ago. I could NOT make them expand. The gilding metal was too strong to upset and every one I tried acted just like a FMJRN. Hornady makes wonderful defensive ammo with a plastic nose to defeat clothing plugging. Using a semi or full wadcutter (there are my long ago wheel gun days showing up) can also have greater impact and tissue disruption than a RN slug.

In short, use the best weapons you can afford and can hit center mass with using the best ammunition you can afford. For me in 9mm that means the Hornady critical defense load. I don't carry the 45 due to weight and arthritis and the distrust for over penetration of ball rounds. In a snubby revolver I carry gold dot duty ammo.
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Is weird twist, I do better with 45ACP hitwise than with 9mm.
 
In regards to the argument about stopping ability, I don't predicate my self defense on misses. Train, train and train more, situational awareness and distractions are key to coming out #1 in a gunfight. Being a law enforcement vet, I have seen too many 9mm's and .40's fail to stop a perp after multiple hits. When all else fails, remember the rules in this attachment.
 

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Mike H. said:
Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled "Ayoob: Is the .45 Obsolete?" and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/ayoob-is-the-45-obsolete/.

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The .45 isn't going anywhere.
Consider the following:
'using the current ammunition shortage as an example'
Would you feel confident carrying FMJ 9mm ammo in your carry gun when defense rounds are unavailable? The answer is probably no.
Would you feel confident carrying FMJ .45 ammo in your carry gun when defense rounds are unavailable? I would have no problem relying on the FMJ cartridge.

Like Ayoob said, those same bullet technology advances apply to the .45 giving it even greater performance.
 
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I have a few of Ayoub's books. I like the guy but the topic of dead 45's has been ongoing since the 70's.
If they were all that crappy, the Marines would not be manufacturing their own proprietary 1911s and there would not be twelve companies producing 1911s and scores producing their parts for the 1911.
That's just the folks building the 1911 and variants!
When I bought my first 1911 in 1980, there was only one company producing them in the USA...Colts. Auto Ordinance was the second company to follow suit.

Question: Why has the average fired round count continually increased in LEO shootings over the past forty years?
Answer: Yep, the 9x19 may be easier to shoot, cheaper to produce and a shooter can carry more ammo, but ya have to pump a bunch of them out there to get the same job done.

Why do we have to learn the same lessons about firearms calibers over and over?
 
iklwa said:
I have a few of Ayoub's books. I like the guy but the topic of dead 45's has been ongoing since the 70's.
If they were all that crappy, the Marines would not be manufacturing their own proprietary 1911s and there would not be twelve companies producing 1911s and scores producing their parts for the 1911.
That's just the folks building the 1911 and variants!
When I bought my first 1911 in 1980, there was only one company producing them in the USA...Colts. Auto Ordinance was the second company to follow suit.

Question: Why has the average fired round count continually increased in LEO shootings over the past forty years?
Answer: Yep, the 9x19 may be easier to shoot, cheaper to produce and a shooter can carry more ammo, but ya have to pump a bunch of them out there to get the same job done.

Why do we have to learn the same lessons about firearms calibers over and over?
Click to expand...
It's called "spray and Pray" bro. Anemic 9 mm's and .40's can't do the job. The hi-cap mags allow all officers on scene to open up on a perp. I've seen 30-40 rounds fired at scenes with the perp not even hit. When I first went in service in law enforcement, we had to qualify with handgun back to the 50 yard line. Emphasis on marksmanship is no longer stressed unless it's on an individual basis.
 
iklwa said:
I have a few of Ayoub's books. I like the guy but the topic of dead 45's has been ongoing since the 70's.
If they were all that crappy, the Marines would not be manufacturing their own proprietary 1911s and there would not be twelve companies producing 1911s and scores producing their parts for the 1911.
That's just the folks building the 1911 and variants!
When I bought my first 1911 in 1980, there was only one company producing them in the USA...Colts. Auto Ordinance was the second company to follow suit.

Question: Why has the average fired round count continually increased in LEO shootings over the past forty years?
Answer: Yep, the 9x19 may be easier to shoot, cheaper to produce and a shooter can carry more ammo, but ya have to pump a bunch of them out there to get the same job done.

Why do we have to learn the same lessons about firearms calibers over and over?
Click to expand...
MARSOC switched from the Colts to Glock 19’s a few years back.

As far as rounds fired in police shootings? Higher capacity magazines are the main culprit, backed by the militarized training model—it’s very much a “pump out lots of rounds fast/spray and pray” mindset over accuracy.

Prior to hi cap 9mm’s coming on the scene, most cops weren’t toting .45’s, or even .357 magnums, for the most part—they were stopping fights (successfully, mind you) with single digit rounds of .38 special.
 
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