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Ayoob: Is the .45 Obsolete?

When I was young (a very long time ago) I remember reading an article about the British and the Boer war, the article was about the 455 Webley, my Grandfather had one and I was fascinated by its break open design. As I remember the story officers who carried smaller caliber pistol complained about shooting 6 holes in the attacker and they were still able to do damage with spearhead and knives but the officers with the 455 said it only took one shot and it was enough shock power to turn the attackers and take them out of the fight. That article was the reason my first pistol was a government issued 45, today my EDC is the Springfield Ronin IN 45.
 
By the bye—caliber is, for the most part, immaterial when it comes to defensive gunfights. All that matters are hits—plural. With all calibers, the stopping percentages are pretty much equal with 2-3 rapid hits.

Don’t believe it?

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KenL said:
When I was young (a very long time ago) I remember reading an article about the British and the Boer war, the article was about the 455 Webley, my Grandfather had one and I was fascinated by its break open design. As I remember the story officers who carried smaller caliber pistol complained about shooting 6 holes in the attacker and they were still able to do damage with spearhead and knives but the officers with the 455 said it only took one shot and it was enough shock power to turn the attackers and take them out of the fight. That article was the reason my first pistol was a government issued 45, today my EDC is the Springfield Ronin IN 45.
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On the other hand, Winston Churchill had nothing but good things to say about the effectiveness of the .30 Mauser fired by the C96 Broomhandle he carried during that war—as did WE Fairbairn, chief instructor for the Shanghai police—who saw a LOT of gunfights.
 
I have been using both .45 and 9mm since 1984. I carry both from time to time. The 1911 model is my favorite. In these times I find having .45 makes me feel safer. Yes my 9mm carries more ammo, but I carry a few extra mags. My rounds are hydra shock +P for both weapons. I fall on both sides of the debate since I carry both. The impact of a .45 bullet is uncontestable, both are now made with the same advantages. Since 7 ft. (statistical fact on police engagements) and under is the primary shooting distance in law enforcement encounters, then to heed the call of the .45 makes sense where the fire fight on the streets is likely to be the one who acts quickest and has the most heft. I have seen 9mm on the streets have minor effect on multiple hits, and Ive seen .45 on the field knockdown and keep down foe's. I have been a soldier and a police officer. You can win with either, with training and skill, but I hedge my bets with a experienced caliber made for takedown, it is why it was created.
 
4th Horseman said:
This coming from a 30 year law enforcement officer who spent more time investigating murders and more time in the autopsy room than at home. I have seen ballistic wounds a lot. My winter ccw is a Springy loaded w/18.5 recoil spring spittin Double tap .450 SMC's in 230 grn. w/ 8 rnd. wilson Combat mags. My warm weather ccw is a Colt Defender 3". Don't get me wrong I have 9mm's and 40's and I love all guns, but when my ass is on the line, .45 is it. The pistol was invented to knock people down and kill them. Still does a good job today.
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Amen.
 
HansGruber said:
MARSOC switched from the Colts to Glock 19’s a few years back.

As far as rounds fired in police shootings? Higher capacity magazines are the main culprit, backed by the militarized training model—it’s very much a “pump out lots of rounds fast/spray and pray” mindset over accuracy.

Prior to hi cap 9mm’s coming on the scene, most cops weren’t toting .45’s, or even .357 magnums, for the most part—they were stopping fights (successfully, mind you) with single digit rounds of .38 special.
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Yepper, I started with a .38 spc/.357 as we all did. Auto's were not allowed to be carried as the only game in town was the 1911 until the Smith 39's and 59's came out.
 
The never to be resolved argument, 9mm vs .45 ACP. Arm chair wannabes to real life ninjas will weigh in with their opinions, some unfounded, but some not.

The one thing that I have expertise in is slinging lead down range. After much research, empirical and real life, I have come to believe that the .45 ACP is what I want on my tool belt when the SHTF. Yes, I also own 9mm and .380 firearms, and I’ve carried 40s and 10s, but my .45 ACP is my favorite.

I know that many Navy SEALS favor the 9mm, but I believe it is for reasons other than ballistic superiority. For one, the 9mm is a NATO cartridge and can be found most anywhere in the world. Also, their theory is the .45 ACP is inadequate in combat because combat adrenaline present in many Tangos requires more rounds downrange than the .45 ACP offers. The presumption is it takes 4 rounds of pistol ammo to take down an aggressive combatant. But wait, my GLOCK Model 20 in .45 ACP with magazine extension carries 15+1. My, my … isn’t that a horse of a different color.

But, to demonstrate how theory compares to reality, I refer you the Moro Rebellion (1899–1913). Moro Muslim Juramentados in suicide attacks continued to charge against American soldiers even after being shot. Panglima Hassan in the Hassan uprising was shot dozens of times before his jihad was stopped. As a result, Americans elected to phase out revolvers with .38 caliber ammunition in favor of .45 ACP to continue their fight against the Moros. Yes, I know a 9mm is not a .38 SPEC, but it is also not a .45 ACP.

As the article states, if the modern and superior hollow point ammunition everyone brags about doesn’t expand, I do have a .45 ACP hardball impacting downrange. Finally, what would you rather get run over by, a high-performance muscle car doing 130mph, or a fully loaded train doing 60mph? Actually, neither one … and that’s the real point to be made. Shoot until the bad guy stops, whether that’s with a 9mm or .45ACP, it doesn’t matter.
 
I’ve always been a .45 guy. In the last 2 years I have bought two ( German) high cap 9MMs. I will carry the VP9 because I love it. I love shooting it and I shoot it well. More often than not I’m carrying one of my .45s though. I’ve simply been shooting them and training with them much, MUCH longer. And I shoot them very well. Shot placement is certainly key, but.......
Is what it is. .45 ain’t going nowhere.
 
TexasLEO said:
The never to be resolved argument, 9mm vs .45 ACP. Arm chair wannabes to real life ninjas will weigh in with their opinions, some unfounded, but some not.

The one thing that I have expertise in is slinging lead down range. After much research, empirical and real life, I have come to believe that the .45 ACP is what I want on my tool belt when the SHTF. Yes, I also own 9mm and .380 firearms, and I’ve carried 40s and 10s, but my .45 ACP is my favorite.

I know that many Navy SEALS favor the 9mm, but I believe it is for reasons other than ballistic superiority. For one, the 9mm is a NATO cartridge and can be found most anywhere in the world. Also, their theory is the .45 ACP is inadequate in combat because combat adrenaline present in many Tangos requires more rounds downrange than the .45 ACP offers. The presumption is it takes 4 rounds of pistol ammo to take down an aggressive combatant. But wait, my GLOCK Model 20 in .45 ACP with magazine extension carries 15+1. My, my … isn’t that a horse of a different color.

But, to demonstrate how theory compares to reality, I refer you the Moro Rebellion (1899–1913). Moro Muslim Juramentados in suicide attacks continued to charge against American soldiers even after being shot. Panglima Hassan in the Hassan uprising was shot dozens of times before his jihad was stopped. As a result, Americans elected to phase out revolvers with .38 caliber ammunition in favor of .45 ACP to continue their fight against the Moros. Yes, I know a 9mm is not a .38 SPEC, but it is also not a .45 ACP.

As the article states, if the modern and superior hollow point ammunition everyone brags about doesn’t expand, I do have a .45 ACP hardball impacting downrange. Finally, what would you rather get run over by, a high-performance muscle car doing 130mph, or a fully loaded train doing 60mph? Actually, neither one … and that’s the real point to be made. Shoot until the bad guy stops, whether that’s with a 9mm or .45ACP, it doesn’t matter.
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.45 acp is the BEST DEFENSE ROUND FOR CLOSE ATTACKS
, if u miss it won’t travel for a mile and go through two houses like a 357 mag
With a a good hollow point round , guaranteed to take the fight out of ant intruder
 
HansGruber said:
MARSOC switched from the Colts to Glock 19’s a few years back.

As far as rounds fired in police shootings? Higher capacity magazines are the main culprit, backed by the militarized training model—it’s very much a “pump out lots of rounds fast/spray and pray” mindset over accuracy.

Prior to hi cap 9mm’s coming on the scene, most cops weren’t toting .45’s, or even .357 magnums, for the most part—they were stopping fights (successfully, mind you) with single digit rounds of .38 special.
Click to expand...
I grew up in Houston, Texas.
Those boys, and I do mean "men", had 357s and 1911s.
The Harris County Sherriff's Department (Houston is in Harris County) had the same with a high proportion of 1911s.
The Texas Rangers and the Department of Public Safety (good name, huh?) did the same.
Those guys had 357 Smiths, mainly.

It was only when lawyers got into the "sue the police because the weapons have no safety" game and the bookkeepers began pushing for cheaper ammo that the change started (read "Glock").
Not coinkydentally, the HPD began recruiting more and more women and they complained the standard "issue" firearms were to hard to shoot.
It was not until the adoption of "issue weapons" that this really all began.
Most LEO of the time where I grew up purchased and qualified with their own firearms.
I believe the DPS were required to use the S&W 357 but they were still responsible for the purchase and maintenance of their handgun...like all motorcycle police had to do.

The majority of 38s came in the form of Detective's Specials and snubby Smiths.
 
iklwa said:
I grew up in Houston, Texas.
Those boys, and I do mean "men", had 357s and 1911s.
The Harris County Sherriff's Department (Houston is in Harris County) had the same with a high proportion of 1911s.
The Texas Rangers and the Department of Public Safety (good name, huh?) did the same.
Those guys had 357 Smiths, mainly.

It was only when lawyers got into the "sue the police because the weapons have no safety" game and the bookkeepers began pushing for cheaper ammo that the change started (read "Glock").
Not coinkydentally, the HPD began recruiting more and more women and they complained the standard "issue" firearms were to hard to shoot.
It was not until the adoption of "issue weapons" that this really all began.
Most LEO of the time where I grew up purchased and qualified with their own firearms.
I believe the DPS were required to use the S&W 357 but they were still responsible for the purchase and maintenance of their handgun...like all motorcycle police had to do.

The majority of 38s came in the form of Detective's Specials and snubby Smiths.
Click to expand...
I used a Colt Python, 4” barrel, blued
 
iklwa said:
I grew up in Houston, Texas.
Those boys, and I do mean "men", had 357s and 1911s.
The Harris County Sherriff's Department (Houston is in Harris County) had the same with a high proportion of 1911s.
The Texas Rangers and the Department of Public Safety (good name, huh?) did the same.
Those guys had 357 Smiths, mainly.

It was only when lawyers got into the "sue the police because the weapons have no safety" game and the bookkeepers began pushing for cheaper ammo that the change started (read "Glock").
Not coinkydentally, the HPD began recruiting more and more women and they complained the standard "issue" firearms were to hard to shoot.
It was not until the adoption of "issue weapons" that this really all began.
Most LEO of the time where I grew up purchased and qualified with their own firearms.
I believe the DPS were required to use the S&W 357 but they were still responsible for the purchase and maintenance of their handgun...like all motorcycle police had to do.

The majority of 38s came in the form of Detective's Specials and snubby Smiths.
Click to expand...
My .45 is a Para-Ordance 12 rounds plus one, 3.5 “ barrel
The P-14 was 14 rounds plus one 5” barrel
 
Like many of you on this forum, I enjoy shooting multiple calibers. If all law enforcement agencies and militaries on the planet stopped issuing guns chambered in .45 ACP today, there would still be enough 1911 enthusiasts alone to keep .45 relevant for decades. If you add in the number of shooters who own guns in multiple calibers, it would be highly unlikely that any caliber in wide circulation today would become "obsolete" within the next 50 years.

I think these articles are fun for stirring friendly debate, but I don't take them too seriously. Even if the ".46 ACP" was invented tomorrow, and it was proven to have superior ballistics to any other cartridge ever made, I doubt that we would all get rid of all the other guns in our collections and only shoot/carry firearms chambered in the new .46.
 
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