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Critical Defense or Federal HST?

I've run some of the Hornady Critical Duty out of a full size M&P9 pistol and was very happy with it. Accurate, good velocity, and I think it would do well against a threat. They make great ammo (but so does Federal, for that matter).
 
Going back to that "mix-and-match" loading -

https://www.facebook.com/handguncombatives/posts/3265276900154307

^ This was posted by Dave Spaulding as a part of his Handgun Combatives FB page just yesterday.

It highlights the difference that a simple change in the cartridge can make.

This is behavior that is not uncommonly observed with virtually all individual/unique examples of modern defensive/duty-grade handguns. It's actually not uncommon at all for any one unique weapon to show upwards of 50% differences in POI/"groups" at 15+ yards, simply from a change in the rounds fired, be it a different brand/make, bullet types, or just a heavier/lighter grain weight.

Overall, "mix-and-match" loading is not without logic or virtue: indeed, it's sound reasoning to think that this should give one best-odds of *something* being optimized in terms of terminal performance, given the widely and wildly unpredictable nature of the threat: everything from the mentally unstable thick winter coat in the summer/T-shirt in the winter to barrier considerations all make having several kinds of cartridges loaded in the magazine seemingly a good idea.

The one place where we see this in combative weaponcraft is of-course the shotgun, where the ability to select-load is a skill that sadly had seemed lost to the ages until the more recent resurgence in shotgun manipulations/weaponcraft. But that's just the thing - this is with tube-fed shotguns: this is specifically a platform which allows the well-practiced shooter the conscious choice to selectively load their cartridge of-choice, on-the-fly and in real-time, to best suit the needs of the threat and the BSA matrix. The shooter consciously chooses the load, and therefore can consciously adjust hold-over and mitigate any differences in recoil.

Unfortuantely, for a box-magazine fed weapon such as a semiautomatic handgun, what becomes problematic is just this inconsistency of external ballistics. In a pressure-cooked scenario, can the shooter consistently adjust for the round that's in the pipe?

Objectively, if the bullets are not impacting at the expected place relative to one's sights or other aiming device, that's a non-starter. That 115 gr. simply will not share the same external ballistics as a 124 gr. or 147 gr., standard pressure, +P, +P+ or otherwise, even if the end-user chooses to use only one manufacturer/make/model of ammo.

Subjectively, differences in recoil mitigation will cause varying performance on follow-up shots.
 
TSiWRX said:
So, let's try to be objective, then. :)

I would encourage you to shoot the gun off a rest or well-bagged, sighting in at the same POA at the 25 yard line. You will see POI changes with your ammo mix.

Similarly, I would encourage you to shoot toward scored/timed metrics, using both your current ammo mix as well as with magazines loaded with a single type of ammo, through-and-through. You will see significant differences in scoring.
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Done already, no major noticeable differences. Maybe you should spend as much time I. The range as you do reading forums lol. Cut the bs, 9/10 nobody’s in a self defense position at 25yds any way. Or you better have a really good reason defending that in court 😂 So it doesn’t matter. At the end of the day they are bullets and with a gun that’s not junk they will fire flawlessly. 5-7yds is you self defense range all that other crap save for the competitions Ctfu. You guys crack me up. Happy shooting boys!
 
Mr.W. said:
Greetings. My EDC pistol is an XD S mod 1. I've always used Hornady, but am interested in trying the HST. Comments and/or suggestions? Good shooting to all!
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I run HST in everything except .380 and I have critical defense in it. 230gr .45acp, 124gr 9mm, 180gr .40s&w. I prefer standard pressure myself but to each his own. Please check out Lucky Gunner ammo tests for side by side comparison with pictures, stats, and high speed video.
 
HVACDOC said:
I run HST in everything except .380 and I have critical defense in it. 230gr .45acp, 124gr 9mm, 180gr .40s&w. I prefer standard pressure myself but to each his own. Please check out Lucky Gunner ammo tests for side by side comparison with pictures, stats, and high speed video.
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Thanks, Doc! I'm a regular @ Lucky Gunner. I have HST Micro 150gr. coming Friday. After range time I'll post my thoughts. Good shooting.
 
Big45XD said:
Done already, no major noticeable differences. Maybe you should spend as much time I. The range as you do reading forums lol. Cut the bs, 9/10 nobody’s in a self defense position at 25yds any way. Or you better have a really good reason defending that in court 😂 So it doesn’t matter. At the end of the day they are bullets and with a gun that’s not junk they will fire flawlessly. 5-7yds is you self defense range all that other crap save for the competitions Ctfu. You guys crack me up. Happy shooting boys!
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"No major noticeable" is still noticeable, no? A .05 difference in splits is still a .05 difference - and how many of those splits will add up with the number of follow-up shots I may need? POA/POI? Just one inch shift will put me out of the credit-card on an IDPA: is that considered "noticeable?"

As for statistics, my belief is based on the late Paul Gomez's outlook (which I'll have to paraphrase, I'm afraid) that at the moment of that dire incident, you've instantly become that "n of 1."

Ostensibly, if the possibility of my having to resort to any form of armed self-defense is minimal why would I carry a firearm for self defense to begin with? Can't that also be extrapolated to distances?

In terms of defense in court? AJOP applies from contact to infinity. If I kill my aggressor who is 100 yards away with my pistol while he's raining lead all around me from that distance, logic dictates that he could have killed me just as easily. Ability, jeopardy, opportunity, preclusion - it always applies.

The late Louis Awerbuck noted that there are reasons why folks who are otherwise good shots miss so often at near-contact-distances. The law of inverse proportions applies, and a fast moving target - I go through that principle, as well as other target considerations, here:

www.thearmorylife.com

Targets

When you go to the range, what kind of targets do you take to use, unless your range supplies them. My range I belong to supplies the metal swingers on the handgun range, I also bring my paper targets, on the rifle, I bring mostly paper targets.
www.thearmorylife.com www.thearmorylife.com

Objective measures which are quantifiable - shooting towards a scoring metric that includes time and distance. That's the only way we know if something is "just as good," versus "almost just as good." That's the only way we can be humbled by Dunning-Kruger, and that's the only way we can work towards improvement. :)
 
TSiWRX said:
"No major noticeable" is still noticeable, no? A .05 difference in splits is still a .05 difference - and how many of those splits will add up with the number of follow-up shots I may need? POA/POI? Just one inch shift will put me out of the credit-card on an IDPA: is that considered "noticeable?"

As for statistics, my belief is based on the late Paul Gomez's outlook (which I'll have to paraphrase, I'm afraid) that at the moment of that dire incident, you've instantly become that "n of 1."

Ostensibly, if the possibility of my having to resort to any form of armed self-defense is minimal why would I carry a firearm for self defense to begin with? Can't that also be extrapolated to distances?

In terms of defense in court? AJOP applies from contact to infinity. If I kill my aggressor who is 100 yards away with my pistol while he's raining lead all around me from that distance, logic dictates that he could have killed me just as easily. Ability, jeopardy, opportunity, preclusion - it always applies.

The late Louis Awerbuck noted that there are reasons why folks who are otherwise good shots miss so often at near-contact-distances. The law of inverse proportions applies, and a fast moving target - I go through that principle, as well as other target considerations, here:

www.thearmorylife.com

Targets

When you go to the range, what kind of targets do you take to use, unless your range supplies them. My range I belong to supplies the metal swingers on the handgun range, I also bring my paper targets, on the rifle, I bring mostly paper targets.
www.thearmorylife.com www.thearmorylife.com

Objective measures which are quantifiable - shooting towards a scoring metric that includes time and distance. That's the only way we know if something is "just as good," versus "almost just as good." That's the only way we can be humbled by Dunning-Kruger, and that's the only way we can work towards improvement. :)
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I’m beginning to appreciate the time and effort you are putting into this, but again this isn’t IDPA, and we are not in a competition shooting match during our normal lives waking up going to work, walking to the store or taking trash out. How many times in your life have you encountered a self defense situation at 100 yards? At that fact any yards? Id bet never, your talking about something you have no real life experience about only target training. And I can first hand tell you when it’s time to put that training to use your not gonna have your chance to pick the shot placement of your choice. You’re gonna shoot whatever target your threat offers you whether it be a foot, a hand Or even a finger. So please just quit it bud. I carry mixed loaded cartridges because that’s what I train with and are efficient with. I encounter situations at 5-7 feet too often in my home town. Not once in all the years have I been living had I even come close to having to defend from 100 yards. Now that being said I do also train at those distances but my concern is in shorter proximity due to the location I live in the probability is a million times more likely something happens 5-7 feet yes FEET. So “no mayjor noticeable difference” is so minimal at that distance it’s doesn’t even matter. Because the bullets are going to connect and the threat is going to and has been stopped.
 
^ You're absolutely right - I have no real self-defense experience, at any range/distance. And in-truth, I'm thankful for it. I try as much as possible to minimize my threat profile and to de-escalate, so my life is a rather peaceful and peachy one. :)

And you're also correct in that I don't train enough - be it armed or empty hands. I am scheduled for my first handgun class of the year this weekend, but that's already three gone by, and I know that I could have hit up at least one more in the interim that just didn't work out to my schedule. So, yes, I'm definitely lacking there, too.

But by these definitions, are we able to say that anyone is training enough as to have sufficient background to offer opinions? If so, then how much training must they have - and does it matter who they train with? And towards that latter, should we say that only folks who have been engaged directly "in the fight" can offer valid opinions thereof? If that's the case, can we even take lessons from the SMEs out there who have not seen direct-action or who have never needed to use lethal force?

Everything that I've written about are considerations that are taught by SMEs in the field which I've sought instruction from, be it defensive handgun use (marksmanship or weapons manipulation), integrated combatives, or the social/psychological concerns of the predator/prey interaction. These are not sporting skills: and really, I would be completely out of my element to speak of sporting applications, as I have yet to engage in IDPA, USPSA, or other such sports.

I agree that at closer distances the "scoring matrix," if you will ;) - the vital zone of the threat - does enlarge considerably (or, rather, that it doesn't shrink...except that it, of-course, does, when 3-dimensional anatomy and movement is factored into the equation: https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/targets.346/#post-5124).

But what doesn't change is the fact that your shot cadence will be varied even if you are able to absolutely compensate for recoil mitigation and place successive rounds at the same POI - and that this can be measured objectively. At contact range, the need to deliver accurate, rapid, successive shots becomes even more important (the entire point behind the NSR drills that the late Pat Rogers and his disciples are so fond of), as human physiology demands either sufficient drop in blood pressure or critical CNS injury to effect cessation of muscular function. None of these demands are exceptions versus modern handgun marksmanship skills.

I respect your decision to carry as you do, Big45XD, just as I do anyone's decisions - and I mean this most sincerely. :)

It's just that you noted previously what @Epeeist wrote was "opinionated" (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/critical-defense-or-federal-hst.91/page-2#post-974) - but it really is not: there's objective measures that any shooter can perform which validates each and every one of those concerns.
 
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I answered earlier, but want to enter a comment at this point as well. I too am signed up to take my first in a series of three self defense pistol classes offered this year. I look forward to learning new ideas and techniques that will enhance my capabilities in defending myself and my family. My goal is to enhance my capability in use of deadly force to enable me to get myself and my family to safety.
 
Mr.W. said:
Greetings. My EDC pistol is an XD S mod 1. I've always used Hornady, but am interested in trying the HST. Comments and/or suggestions? Good shooting to all!
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I have done a lot of research on ammo, ballistics, and cost. My personal preference based on my research and experience is to use Federal Premium LE 124 Grain HST JHP for self defense, and Federal American Eagle 124 Grain FMJ for range ammo. But, always at least run a mag of your self defense ammo when you go to the range.
 
Epeeist said:
Not trying to be mean or pick a fight! I was genuinely curious as to rather or not you were making a joke. Assuming you're being serious and not just trying to "troll" folks like myself, my objections to the practice you were endorsing are as follows:

1. Point of Impact Shift: Different barrels and rifling patterns perform better with different bullet types, powders and overall lengths. While it might be a small difference going from 115 grain in one hollow point design with one powder to another, you are tolerance stacking by running multiple brands, bullet weights and configurations. This is maximizing your group spread from a mechanical accuracy point of view. That is irrespective of the shooter. You can lock the gun in a rest and see this effect.

Generally speaking, and this is very broad and weapon/shooter dependent, less recoil lowers POI, more recoil raises POI, within a given given bullet weight. Since bullet weight impacts recoil and slide energy, changing bullet weights from shot to shot exacerbates the effect. POI shift is also velocity dependent, so adding different burn rates of various powders with different bullet weights means you will be as inaccurate as mechanically possible in a given firearm.

2. Training: Irrespective of accuracy, changing the bullet weights and powders inside the magazine will result in every shot feeling different from the last. Consistent feedback is an important part of the muscle memory utilized in recoil control and learning how to drive a gun quickly from shot to shot and target to target. If your recoil impulse changes dramatically from shot to shot, you are making it more difficult to bring the gun back on target as quickly as possible in a given string. Its very difficult to find a shooting rhythm and ride the recoil if the recoil of the gun changes every shot.

3. Malfunction Inducement: By running your guns slide at different speeds and with different bullet shapes and different OAL in bullets, you are maximizing the situation where even a reliable handgun can choke up in feeding. Remember the shooter will also be giving different feedback to the gun with your grip via each shots recoil being different.

4. Gun Wu Wu: This last one is pretty unscientific, but I think most people who have shot one gun a lot will know where I am coming from. When you get used to one load and one firearm, you can "listen to the gun talk" during strings of fire. You don't need to see that you have fired your last shot, you feel the slide lock open. You know its getting time to clean it when the gun "tells" you its getting crunchy. You know immediately if you had a squib or some other issue because that shot felt different that the thousand or so before it. I know not everyone carries the same gun on duty day in and day out, or shoots tens of thousands of rounds a year in competition, but I don't know why you would rob yourself of the change to learn your guns "feel" by making it feel different every shot.
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Extremely well said.
 
Underwood 9mm Xtreme Defender.
MV:1400
ME:392
15” Penetration
021DC016-8A5D-4498-887B-9897F0A0DB82.jpeg
 
Epeeist said:
Not trying to be mean or pick a fight! I was genuinely curious as to rather or not you were making a joke. Assuming you're being serious and not just trying to "troll" folks like myself, my objections to the practice you were endorsing are as follows:

1. Point of Impact Shift: Different barrels and rifling patterns perform better with different bullet types, powders and overall lengths. While it might be a small difference going from 115 grain in one hollow point design with one powder to another, you are tolerance stacking by running multiple brands, bullet weights and configurations. This is maximizing your group spread from a mechanical accuracy point of view. That is irrespective of the shooter. You can lock the gun in a rest and see this effect.

Generally speaking, and this is very broad and weapon/shooter dependent, less recoil lowers POI, more recoil raises POI, within a given given bullet weight. Since bullet weight impacts recoil and slide energy, changing bullet weights from shot to shot exacerbates the effect. POI shift is also velocity dependent, so adding different burn rates of various powders with different bullet weights means you will be as inaccurate as mechanically possible in a given firearm.

2. Training: Irrespective of accuracy, changing the bullet weights and powders inside the magazine will result in every shot feeling different from the last. Consistent feedback is an important part of the muscle memory utilized in recoil control and learning how to drive a gun quickly from shot to shot and target to target. If your recoil impulse changes dramatically from shot to shot, you are making it more difficult to bring the gun back on target as quickly as possible in a given string. Its very difficult to find a shooting rhythm and ride the recoil if the recoil of the gun changes every shot.

3. Malfunction Inducement: By running your guns slide at different speeds and with different bullet shapes and different OAL in bullets, you are maximizing the situation where even a reliable handgun can choke up in feeding. Remember the shooter will also be giving different feedback to the gun with your grip via each shots recoil being different.

4. Gun Wu Wu: This last one is pretty unscientific, but I think most people who have shot one gun a lot will know where I am coming from. When you get used to one load and one firearm, you can "listen to the gun talk" during strings of fire. You don't need to see that you have fired your last shot, you feel the slide lock open. You know its getting time to clean it when the gun "tells" you its getting crunchy. You know immediately if you had a squib or some other issue because that shot felt different that the thousand or so before it. I know not everyone carries the same gun on duty day in and day out, or shoots tens of thousands of rounds a year in competition, but I don't know why you would rob yourself of the change to learn your guns "feel" by making it feel different every shot.
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While I don't mix rounds in my carry gun I do in field guns being FMJ/Expander. In my state I don't think I could sell a 25yrd self defense shot. I do understand the impact of the different rounds at a target 25yards but not for sure on the relevance at 2-5yards. In my house distances will be relatively short and in the world not much further. To me the biggest impact of the different rounds would be penetration differences resulting in unintended consequences both for the victim and you.
 
The Critical Duty 135+p ammo is really a good round, all across the board. It does well in every test and the Black Hills Honey Badger is another round that comes close to the Critical Duty. That’s why I like the Underwoord Xtreme Defender. The flutes open up a “greater” wound channel than a standard JHP.
 
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