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“Displaying” a firearm

Open Carry

While I fully support your right to open carry as you see fit it's certainly not something I'm interested in doing because IME it invites people into my life that I don't want in my life.

I open carried at work because it was a requirement but what I've found is that all it really does is give people a reason to make stupid comments about my gun. I remember one idiot in particular who said literally the exact same words every time he saw me. "Here comes the guard,he's got a gun. Better watch out or he'll shoot you."

I've also read comments on various forums in which the poster took great pleasure in addressing an open carrier in public to either tell him what kind of an idiot he was or how grateful he was that the carrier was supporting the Second Amendment. I find both approaches to be incredibly annoying and if I can avoid that by not open carrying I will.

I've told this story before but I went into a 7-11 to get a gas receipt for the company car one afternoon While I was in line a homeless guy walked through the door, took one look at me and got right in my face and yelled "I'm security around here M"expletive deleted" F. I was wearing body armor, carrying a taser, pepper spray and a gun and it didn't phase this guy one bit. On another occasion a tweaker tried to take my gun off me in a Kum&Go one night. If they weren't intimidated by me in full battle rattle I don't believe they'd hesitate an instant to go after the Taurus you're carrying in an Uncle Mike's.

I say this a lot because I'm absolutely convinced it's true but if you want to open carry by all means do so but you had better have a plan for WHEN someone tries to take it off you.
 
The Night Rider said:
Open Carry

While I fully support your right to open carry as you see fit it's certainly not something I'm interested in doing because IME it invites people into my life that I don't want in my life.

I open carried at work because it was a requirement but what I've found is that all it really does is give people a reason to make stupid comments about my gun. I remember one idiot in particular who said literally the exact same words every time he saw me. "Here comes the guard,he's got a gun. Better watch out or he'll shoot you."

I've also read comments on various forums in which the poster took great pleasure in addressing an open carrier in public to either tell him what kind of an idiot he was or how grateful he was that the carrier was supporting the Second Amendment. I find both approaches to be incredibly annoying and if I can avoid that by not open carrying I will.

I've told this story before but I went into a 7-11 to get a gas receipt for the company car one afternoon While I was in line a homeless guy walked through the door, took one look at me and got right in my face and yelled "I'm security around here M"expletive deleted" F. I was wearing body armor, carrying a taser, pepper spray and a gun and it didn't phase this guy one bit. On another occasion a tweaker tried to take my gun off me in a Kum&Go one night. If they weren't intimidated by me in full battle rattle I don't believe they'd hesitate an instant to go after the Taurus you're carrying in an Uncle Mike's.

I say this a lot because I'm absolutely convinced it's true but if you want to open carry by all means do so but you had better have a plan for WHEN someone tries to take it off you.
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I think the “perception” of the public is an untrained goof with a gun.
They know security is not the Police, gun and all.
Which can be further from the truth in a lot of cases, but thats perception.
So security gets the snub like you describe
 
The Night Rider said:
While I fully support your right to open carry as you see fit it's certainly not something I'm interested in doing because IME it invites people into my life that I don't want in my life.
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Speaking to a friend who's a LEO he recommended against OC except in the rural areas of the state where most of the local ranchers OC where its a common sight. Problem being that the Police are required to respond to every call and when you OC in the more populated areas every Karen in the area are burning up the 911 lines causing police to have to repond to non-events...
 
BreakingWind said:
Speaking to a friend who's a LEO he recommended against OC except in the rural areas of the state where most of the local ranchers OC where its a common sight. Problem being that the Police are required to respond to every call and when you OC in the more populated areas every Karen in the area are burning up the 911 lines causing police to have to repond to non-events...
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Good to know.

I was at work one night and I watched some random guy walk down the road with a rifle in his hand. This is a completely legal activity in Colorado Springs.

While I was debating whether or not I was going to do anything about it a client manager pulled into the parking lot and told me to call the police and report it.

At that point it was client discretion and I had to call the police. The dispatcher (Non Emergency) actually told me that the guy wasn't doing anything illegal and that they weren't sending the police for that.

It's worth mentioning here that in the mid-2000 teens there was a mass shooting in Colorado Springs that began with the shooter walking down the street with a rifle in his hand. There were multiple 911 calls and the people that called were told he wasn't doing anything illegal the police weren't coming. No police response was sent until the guy started shooting.

By this time the guy was well down the street. He certainly wasn't any threat to the property that I was contracted to guard and I was just happy to get a call number for my report and continue my night.

The strange thing is, 5 minutes after I hung up six cop cars converged on my gate looking for the guy.
 
ECS686 said:
When I made the post you quoted. I was merely answering the persons situation that he mentioned that did escalate. And the non aggressor called the police first. Mas Ayoob has touched on that several times. If you have to have an argument and the gun is shown even in a holster ready ie stays in the holster but!!!!
You might want to report the confrontation.

I’m just glad my state doesn’t have a brandishing law it’s a pointing a loaded or unloaded firearm where you have to aim or muzzle sweep them. You can have it at a low ready at 45 degrees and you are GTG
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I was just in the mindset of an argument that doesn't end in a physical conflict is just another one of them daily annoyances but not something worthy of calling the law. I see your point, if you are armed the rules change.

In my state, unholstered at the low 45 could get you charged with attempted aggravated assault with a firearm.
 
Bassbob said:
If the big guy isn't armed use of deadly force is most likely not justified.
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In MI, there is the 21' Rule. Although it commonly associated with a knife, my MI State Trooper buddy told me you are justified to draw when in an altercation.
I was recently in a situation with two guys in my driveway. I didn't draw but was at the ready when they threatened me. I verbally said "you don't want to do that" and stood my ground but never indicated that I was armed.
We live among some real jerks and the very reason I upgraded my LC9 to the Hellcat Pro.
 
Jim Diamantoni said:
In MI, there is the 21' Rule. Although it commonly associated with a knife, my MI State Trooper buddy told me you are justified to draw when in an altercation.
I was recently in a situation with two guys in my driveway. I didn't draw but was at the ready when they threatened me. I verbally said "you don't want to do that" and stood my ground but never indicated that I was armed.
We live among some real jerks and the very reason I upgraded my LC9 to the Hellcat Pro.
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Exactly which law in MI states a “21’ Rule”?

Never seen the Tueller Drill codified into law…
 
Jim Diamantoni said:
In MI, there is the 21' Rule. Although it commonly associated with a knife, my MI State Trooper buddy told me you are justified to draw when in an altercation.
I was recently in a situation with two guys in my driveway. I didn't draw but was at the ready when they threatened me. I verbally said "you don't want to do that" and stood my ground but never indicated that I was armed.
We live among some real jerks and the very reason I upgraded my LC9 to the Hellcat Pro.
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Please show me the law in Michigan that states a 21 foot rule. I live in Michigan and know of no such law.

Michigan laws states

(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.

I see nothing in Michigan law about 21 feet. Neither is it mentioned in the Castle Doctrine. You might wish to get clarification from your state trooper buddy.
 
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Jim Diamantoni said:
In MI, there is the 21' Rule. Although it commonly associated with a knife, my MI State Trooper buddy told me you are justified to draw when in an altercation.
I was recently in a situation with two guys in my driveway. I didn't draw but was at the ready when they threatened me. I verbally said "you don't want to do that" and stood my ground but never indicated that I was armed.
We live among some real jerks and the very reason I upgraded my LC9 to the Hellcat Pro.
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I read though the Michgan use of force statute and did not see any reference to a 21 foot rule. Can you provide a cite? My curiosity is piqued as to the origin of this rule.

Typically use of force or threatened use of force cases are determined by the reasonble person standard. Would a reasonable person believe he was in imminent peril of death or grievous bodily harm or some other enumerated forcible felony? You cannot quantify or codify justification becase of the many variables in different situations.
 
The Tueller Drill or supposed 21 foot rule is often misunderstood and misapplied. It is a theoretical distance than an adversary with an edged weapon can cover before a competent officer can draw and fire his weapon. Through many live fire tests on the range we have demonstrated that each officer's distance is different. It is a valuble training drill to illustrate the need to get the gun into the fight quickly against a determined attacker. But out on the street there is no set distance and you cannot rely on a 21 foot threshold for justification.
 
Sld1959 said:
Please show me the law in Michigan that states a 21 foot rule. I live in Michigan and know of no such law.

Michigan laws states

(a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
(b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
(2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.

I see nothing in Michigan law about 21 feet. Neither is it mentioned in the Castle Doctrine. You might wish to get clarification from your state trooper buddy.
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In my experience, cops are some of the WORST people to get legal advice from…they often misunderstand laws, at the best, to grossly misrepresent at worst.

If you want legal advice, you talk to an attorney.
 
HansGruber said:
In my experience, cops are some of the WORST people to get legal advice from…they often misunderstand laws, at the best, to grossly misrepresent at worst.

If you want legal advice, you talk to an attorney.
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With a LEO a lead Use of Force/firearms instructor is probably better off with any advice over a line LEO as Leads and Instructors have constant updates on case rulings and have their hands on the pulse of other agencies around the state in dos and don’ts.

An attorney can be better but not all attorneys know self defense law same as a Trooper might not be as much up civilian self defense as they would traffic codes. Tit for tat sometimes!
 
ECS686 said:
With a LEO a lead Use of Force/firearms instructor is probably better off with any advice over a line LEO as Leads and Instructors have constant updates on case rulings and have their hands on the pulse of other agencies around the state in dos and don’ts.

An attorney can be better but not all attorneys know self defense law same as a Trooper might not be as much up civilian self defense as they would traffic codes. Tit for tat sometimes!
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Yes, best to talk to a defense attorney, and if you can find one that works in use of force cases, all the better.

As for leads/etc…I would still take that information with a large grain of salt. Too often, they’re going to view it through the LE lens…and, like it or not, there’s often a different set of rules as to when LE can/should use lethal force vs when a non LEO can.
 
Good input fellas. I will do some digging into the 21' Rule and post my findings.

***Please note that I am not an attorney nor was I trying to suggest any legal advice to anyone.***
 
HansGruber said:
Yes, best to talk to a defense attorney, and if you can find one that works in use of force cases, all the better.

As for leads/etc…I would still take that information with a large grain of salt. Too often, they’re going to view it through the LE lens…and, like it or not, there’s often a different set of rules as to when LE can/should use lethal force vs when a non LEO can.
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True to a point. Take everything with that grain. a good lead though would know case law as far as what the circumstances would have been for a civilian to be charged or cleared I. A use of force.

I’d also add the area if the country might be different too. I’m sure a NYC person would get different “suggestions “ as what’s legal and not than say someone in Indiana Alabama etc!
 
BreakingWind said:
Your missing the point Bob, the point is that the mere act of lifting your shirt to show that you are carrying a gun. Not pulling it, not waving it around, not even saying I'll shoot your ugly &$$, just the mere act of showing you are carrying is brandishing...
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I don't think he's missing the point at all. He stated that the little guy wasn't Justified in using deadly force.

I'm using Colorado law as a reference her but in Colorado if you're not justified in using deadly force you are not justified in threatening deadly force.

IOW unless you are justified in using deadly force you don't lift your shirt and show the gun I think that's what Bob was saying. I am, of course, open to correction
 
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