The Night Rider
Professional
The only reason I'm even quoting this post is so that somebody can read it twice
“Displaying” a firearm
- Thread starter somorris
- Start date
HayesGreener
Ronin
On top of it all, a reminder: In every trial, exactly 50% of the lawyers are wrong.
kenpomaniac1958
Master Class
I agree sir. I worked as an armed security officer for many years in the Dallas area(part time and full time). I also had a Bodyguard License(level 4 security) for several years.
It never bothered me that much when people called me "Barney Fife" or made other smart ass comments.
I've been involved martial arts most of my life and when I worked security(before camera phones and such) and somebody tried to get physical I usually had the skills to get them to back off. Most of the time I went hands on with somebody they'd give me space and not chirp as much.
My attitude always was that I didn't care how much you talked but once you violated my personal space and kept violating it after I warned you, we were done talking.
I'm not a fan of open carry because it just creates more problems than it solves in my humble opinion. To each their own. I carry a knife and firearm and if my verbal judo doesn't give me time to escape, then I am prepared to go "hands on" but I always do my best to not let it get to that point. A firearm for me is last resort after trying to talk my out and creating personal space hasn't worked.
I have very heavy hands from all my years of Boxing and Martial Arts(American Kenpo, Escrima, Kuntao-Silat). I have slapped aggressive people's hands off of me and seen their attitude change from being aggressive to not wanting to be near me.
I had a guy reach for my firearm when I was in uniform breaking up a fight at the Taco Cabana on Lower Greenville back in the 1990's. I was using a Safariland holster that had great retention. I hit the aggressive guy with an open hand slap(Pak Sao) on the inside of one his thighs. He backed off and crumpled to the ground and started crying.
Forearm and open hand strikes and kicks using my shins(from Muy Thai) pretty much got people I dealt with to comply or at least created space. And as a civilian I wouldn't hesitate to use these tools before I'd consider reaching for my knife or firearm and after verbal de-escalation didn't work.
Reaching for a firearm is something I'd prefer not to do unless absolutely necessary. That's why I train almost daily in basic maneuvering drills to create distance to get away and/or continuing to de-escalate.
Grayfox
Professional
I've done a bit of research and found that my state, Tennessee, doesn't have any sort of law or ruling on Brandishing. You can, however, be charged with anything from reckless endangerment to armed assault. It depends entirely on the arresting officer, local DA and circumstances surrounding the incident.
Best to just leave the gun alone unless shots need to be fired.
Best to just leave the gun alone unless shots need to be fired.
KillerFord1977
SAINT
Here is when the firearm is pulled and ready to use:
HansGruber
Ronin
The thing is…
I can’t see where JUST drawing & presenting a firearm is going to help me—as a non-LEO—de-escalate the situation.
On in my way of looking at it, that shows a distinct lack of willingness to use it…which just guarantees that you’re going to have to, or lose it.
In my view—which could be flawed, but I don’t think it is—anyone who is doing something so egregious as to force me to draw my weapon as a last resort will have the time between when the drawstroke begins until the sights are on target to cease their threatening behavior and GTFO Dodge to prevent full engagement.
I can’t see where JUST drawing & presenting a firearm is going to help me—as a non-LEO—de-escalate the situation.
On in my way of looking at it, that shows a distinct lack of willingness to use it…which just guarantees that you’re going to have to, or lose it.
In my view—which could be flawed, but I don’t think it is—anyone who is doing something so egregious as to force me to draw my weapon as a last resort will have the time between when the drawstroke begins until the sights are on target to cease their threatening behavior and GTFO Dodge to prevent full engagement.
HayesGreener
Ronin
Yep. I am not going to draw in a confrontation if I am not going to use it. I tell friends and family, if you see me draw, it's gonna get loud.
HayesGreener
Ronin
Bassbob
Emissary
Agreed. There are some rather unlikely circumstances where this is a possibility, but my general rule and one of the rules drummed into me by the old man was never pull a gun you aren't planning on using. Another one was never shoot something/someone you don't intend to kill/destroy.
As far as distance ( The Tueller thing) there is no such clause in Missouri state law and it is not something the guy I train under has ever referenced as a guideline. His guideline is if someone is running towards you with a knife or a gun, shoot them.
The Night Rider
Professional
I know we can’t possibly prepare for every eventuality but I can not conceive of a circumstance that would lead me to draw against an armed criminal and simply order him to drop his weapon. If the situation has gone that far the time for talk is over.
There will be no warning commands. Unless the criminal stands down between the time I draw and my sights are on the target I will fire.
Having said that, I've read innumerable posts on the internet by people who are advising that if you draw at all you better kill the other guy so that there's only one story being told in court. (As a side note I would really hate to be sitting on the witness stand and listen to the prosecuting attorney reading my words saying that)
That is absolutely not what I want to be perceived as saying and whenever somebody says something like that it seems to be that that's how it's perceived
There will be no warning commands. Unless the criminal stands down between the time I draw and my sights are on the target I will fire.
Having said that, I've read innumerable posts on the internet by people who are advising that if you draw at all you better kill the other guy so that there's only one story being told in court. (As a side note I would really hate to be sitting on the witness stand and listen to the prosecuting attorney reading my words saying that)
That is absolutely not what I want to be perceived as saying and whenever somebody says something like that it seems to be that that's how it's perceived
There's no reason for me to brandish a firearm as I would never have a reason to try to intentionally intimidate someone by brandishing.
I carry concealed to keep my firearm from the public eye to not run into unnecessary complications.
In New Hampshire we are pretty free with the way we carry and the self protection laws here are there to protect you legally granted you are in an actual legit legal definition of a self defense situation and not just a perception of what you may view as self defense.
It's always better to diffuse a situation or leave from an aggressive encounter if at all possible. A battle of egos always ends badly for all involved.
I carry concealed to keep my firearm from the public eye to not run into unnecessary complications.
In New Hampshire we are pretty free with the way we carry and the self protection laws here are there to protect you legally granted you are in an actual legit legal definition of a self defense situation and not just a perception of what you may view as self defense.
It's always better to diffuse a situation or leave from an aggressive encounter if at all possible. A battle of egos always ends badly for all involved.
Bassbob
Emissary
I have a more appropriate piece of advice. Don't draw unless you are going to shoot. And if you are going to shoot, it should be to stop the threat to your life in the quickest manner possible. That usually means a fatality if your aim is true.
The Night Rider
Professional
I mean, isn't that pretty much what I said? You've got until my sights are on the target to stand down or I'm going to shoot.
If that's true why do 85% of the people who are shot with handguns survive the experience?
Bassbob
Emissary
It is exactly what you said. I wasn't disagreeing with you.
I can't be responsible for what anyone else aims at or how good of a shot they are. Tell me what percentage of people shot in the head or the upper thoracic cavity with a handgun survive ?
The Night Rider
Professional
Again, according to the CDC 85% of people shot with a handgun survived the experience. They didn't specify where they were shot.
It goes without saying I'm sure but (God Forbid) if I ever have to shoot somebody I'm not trying to kill them. I'm trying to stop the threat.
I think I've said this before but while I was working two guys tried to rob me while I was on my way to work. I was in uniform, my gun was openly displayed and me putting my hand on it was the level of force that I had to go to before they turned around and walked away.
As soon as the threat stopped, I stopped.
Bassbob
Emissary
Nowhere in my post did I advise to shoot to kill anyone. I advised stopping the threat as quickly as possible. That's generally not shooting someone in the arm or the stomach though.
Again, I cannot be held responsible for other people's shooting skill. I can tell you that 85% of people shot with a handgun includes a lot of innocent, unintended bystanders and a lot of people who were shot by people with little or no skill ( That is, people who's AIM WAS NOT TRUE). I assure you that if I have made the decision that my life is in danger and I have to draw and shoot to stop a threat, I will not be shooting to wound someone and I will not be shooting them in the leg. You can shoot them wherever you want though, that's not my business.
Also it's cute that you trust the CDC for gun stats.
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Bassbob
Emissary
I have been shot at 4 times in the last 10 years. In that same time I have also scared off what was most likely people coming to rob me or do something I didn't feel like finding out about. Generally turning and facing them with my hands in my pockets was all I had to do. They prefer you unaware and definitely unarmed.
kcruisin
Operator
The 21' guideline has been expanded in the past several years.
The idea is how quickly can you stop a running threat of a knife.
I saw a video last year of a group of cops that failed at 40 or 50'. Luckily only one officer was wounded.
Knives scare me and I'm slow to draw, I value my life more than 21'.
The idea is how quickly can you stop a running threat of a knife.
I saw a video last year of a group of cops that failed at 40 or 50'. Luckily only one officer was wounded.
Knives scare me and I'm slow to draw, I value my life more than 21'.
HansGruber
Ronin
It’s not gospel.
Nor is it a law anywhere that I’m aware of.
That being said, shooting someone down that has a knife/other type of melee weapon 50’ away from you may pose issues should it go to trial.
Just sayin’.
Bassbob
Emissary
Especially if said person isn't advancing on you. This may be one of those circumstances I was referring to earlier where Holding a weapon at low ready or SUL while issuing a verbal warning might be prudent.