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Does the Cartridge Still Matter?

that's why i had asked the other guy who said he carries them in his revolver. i'd think you'd want that bullet to cut thru things. but as the video said, it also has less recoil.
“Pointy” bullets make smaller holes than wadcutters/semiwadcutters; the round/pointy nose allows the target to stretch around it, where sharp shoulders cut.

You can see this for yourself at the range; when shooting FMJ, there is a smaller-than-caliber hole in the paper, with a gray “grease ring” surrounding it where the paper deformed around the bullet. A wadcutter/SWC will cut a clean hole.
 
Do you know what a “bladed” stance is?

View attachment 23678
To get to vitals (heart, etc—the high thoracic, where you have the best chance for a rapid stop), your shot will have to go through the arm, or the width of the chest at minimum.

If you think your assailant will oblige you with a perfectly squared shot, you may want to reconsider.
what..???

you mean if i ask him politely to turn around, he won't do it..??

well this just sucks.....

(just joking ;) )

ain't heard of the blade stance, not any other stance for that matter.

there really isn't any way for me to practice this, or is there..????
 
what..???

you mean if i ask him politely to turn around, he won't do it..??

well this just sucks.....

(just joking ;) )

ain't heard of the blade stance, not any other stance for that matter.

there really isn't any way for me to practice this, or is there..????
The picture I posted is a target; not sure who makes it, but you can get photorealistic targets like it.

Basically, though, my point was more a comment on your saying you couldn’t see having to take a shot the long way through the chest, or through the arm; I was pointing out that it’s more likely, and a what having to take that shot would look like.
 
The picture I posted is a target; not sure who makes it, but you can get photorealistic targets like it.

Basically, though, my point was more a comment on your saying you couldn’t see having to take a shot the long way through the chest, or through the arm; I was pointing out that it’s more likely, and a what having to take that shot would look like.
yeah, i said what i had, as i was thinking the perp is gonna come up to you, or running up to you, he ain't gonna be running sideways??

unless he knows that his best chance for survival?

i dunno, just asking, i do not see any training videos on this
 
What about a .44 Magnum ?

It will drop a man. Super powerful cartridge.
Stop em clear in the tracks.

Exhibit A:

D5B7EC88-2E07-430C-91FD-53F6DD83BA1D.jpeg

Harry Callahan nailed a suspect with the .44, but he didnt kill him.

Why ?

Shot placement.

It matters 😉
 
yeah, i said what i had, as i was thinking the perp is gonna come up to you, or running up to you, he ain't gonna be running sideways??

unless he knows that his best chance for survival?

i dunno, just asking, i do not see any training videos on this
Consider:

Your assailant is facing you, and you begin your draw; as this takes time, and he realizes what is happening, he begins to turn while presenting the above stance.

Remember—they have a say in how things happens as well…thinking they’re going to stand, rooted to the ground, perfectly square like those silhouette targets at the range, while you execute your drawstroke…well, that’s probably not realistic.

Don’t know if you’ve ever put yourself against a timer, but most people take around two seconds to draw from concealment…and that is a LONG TIME for them to react.

As for training videos? I’m not a fan. I’d recommend finding an actual instructor for in person classes.
 
Consider:

Your assailant is facing you, and you begin your draw; as this takes time, and he realizes what is happening, he begins to turn while presenting the above stance.

Remember—they have a say in how things happens as well…thinking they’re going to stand, rooted to the ground, perfectly square like those silhouette targets at the range, while you execute your drawstroke…well, that’s probably not realistic.

Don’t know if you’ve ever put yourself against a timer, but most people take around two seconds to draw from concealment…and that is a LONG TIME for them to react.

As for training videos? I’m not a fan. I’d recommend finding an actual instructor for in person classes.
yeah, we are not allowed to draw on the firing line at the range or the club.
 
Ouch.

That’s a nightmare scenario target, right there.

As for not being allowed to draw at your club/range—this reinforces my earlier suggestion to get live instruction over watching videos. You will likely be drawing in those classes…if you’ve never done it for real, you really, really need to.
that is easier said, then done.

i had some months ago, searched for training, even thru the USCCA, no luck.
 

to which was replied -

Ouch.

That’s a nightmare scenario target, right there.

So here's a bit of a tangent (I love tangents :p ) -

How is the above target, which presents this image:

1640832768855.png


....any different than what played out in the LAPD shooting that we're talking about in the drywall/.223 thread? - https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum...defense-gun-dangerous.7362/page-3#post-134439


I am sorry that this brings the discussion off of its true course - that of terminal ballistics - but I thought that this would be both a good mental exercise, as well as a timely cross-comparison.
 
that is easier said, then done.

i had some months ago, searched for training, even thru the USCCA, no luck.

@Old_Me - My apologies if I'd asked before: are you willing to share a generalized geographic location? Area-in-state (for me, for example, NE-Ohio would be accurate) would be great, but even just the state would be great. Or a general quadrant of the country, if the former is not acceptable.
 
Consider:

Your assailant is facing you, and you begin your draw; as this takes time, and he realizes what is happening, he begins to turn while presenting the above stance.

Remember—they have a say in how things happens as well…thinking they’re going to stand, rooted to the ground, perfectly square like those silhouette targets at the range, while you execute your drawstroke…well, that’s probably not realistic.

Don’t know if you’ve ever put yourself against a timer, but most people take around two seconds to draw from concealment…and that is a LONG TIME for them to react.

As for training videos? I’m not a fan. I’d recommend finding an actual instructor for in person classes.
I have taken 4 holster classes and shoot on the move, forced failures, etc …

You’d be amazed how long it takes to get from softball + sized groupings to smaller when drawing under time, pressure and moving.
My tens of thousands of rounds stationary allowed for good small groups and quick learning curve.

Placement and training matter
 
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to which was replied -



So here's a bit of a tangent (I love tangents :p ) -

How is the above target, which presents this image:

View attachment 23680

....any different than what played out in the LAPD shooting that we're talking about in the drywall/.223 thread? - https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum...defense-gun-dangerous.7362/page-3#post-134439


I am sorry that this brings the discussion off of its true course - that of terminal ballistics - but I thought that this would be both a good mental exercise, as well as a timely cross-comparison.
Why you train with a 3” circle..
Then go to draw classes and moving…

F6CA25B7-BA43-4A30-96F8-FF116731B1B9.jpeg
 
Consider:

Your assailant is facing you, and you begin your draw; as this takes time, and he realizes what is happening, he begins to turn while presenting the above stance.

Remember—they have a say in how things happens as well…thinking they’re going to stand, rooted to the ground, perfectly square like those silhouette targets at the range, while you execute your drawstroke…well, that’s probably not realistic.

^ Towards practicing more towards real-life, I'd like to again introduce a bit of a tangent, and bring up the following for consideration......

If everyone (from here on, the word: "you" addresses everyone) would be so kind as to allow me to move from the "upper thoracic" shot, I'd like to instead introduce the more demanding "eye box" shot - the ostensible "off switch" of the critical CNS, i.e. "head," shot. I find that discussing this is easier than it is the exact placement of the heart and great-vessels in the upper thoracic cavity, which, if you'll take a minute to search through some Google Images of 3-D anatomy, you'll find to be somewhat less easy to pin down than what is typically seen on various flat-range targets.

So, the "eye box" it is...... (for now ;) - I'll switch to the upper thoracic in a bit, and then play between and off the two, continually)

As the target rotates in three dimensions either via its movement (including elevation) or yours - or a combination of both - one must keep the true anatomical concerns in-mind (no pun intended), rather than to shoot for a 2-dimensional marker of what's supposed to be. This old thread on Pistol-Training.com offers some excellent discussion with relation to flat-range targets:


As the late Louis Awerbuck noted, flat-range targets are great for learning marksmanship - and the anatomically correct variants offer students an excellent bridge towards thinking about the "why" of the "what" they are hitting.

However, as shooters advance, more consideration needs to be paid to the latter - the "whys" behind the "whats."

And in this case, the context should expand to how the underlying anatomy presents as the threat - the person - is moving (or appears to be moving, if he/she is stationary but you as the shooter happens to be moving) in three-dimensional space.

Not too long ago, we saw this incident here in Ohio - Man with CCW permit shoots armed Family Dollar robbery suspect - which sparked some discussion on the Ohioans for Concealed Carry Forums, of which I made the following reply regarding not just head shots, but specific to this case, someone who was "shot in the eye."

It's really all about the angles, and what tissues are disrupted/destroyed via the bullet's passing.

"Belt-buckle-to-belt-buckle" is what we typically look at when we are shooting on the square range. Our target is a one-dimensional one, and we therefore must make the necessary anatomical correlations as-such.

Once the body starts to rotate and present at different angles in space, things get considerably more complicated.

So now that we have some idea of where this discussion is going by my use of a very precise anatomic structure, let's zoom out a bit. Let's forget the "skull kill shot" for a bit. Let's make this easier, how big is the target - let's say high-center-mass - when a person is sideways?

From the late Louis Awerbuck's teachings - for those of you who are unfamiliar, his "Mirage Target System" (of the former Yavapai Firearms Academy, which he was the head of until he passed away recently) ranks right up there with the Rogers Reactive, and is unique in simulating a real-world, dynamic, encounter, complete with backdrop and foreground concerns - we understand that a dynamic, real-world confrontation in which both parties are moving will make marksmanship considerably harder: that there is a very physical/mathematical reason why even trained individuals miss at close range.

In addition to the body-size metric Mr. Awerbuck presented in the free Panteao Productions "Tactical Tips" segment (abstracted from his full-length DVD, from the same source):


^ we are reminded by him that the actual "vital area" for a human target, high-center-mass, is really no wider than ~ 9 inches, full-frontal, no matter how big the person. That this "breast-plate," as he calls it, essentially shrinks when the target is presented to the shooter at an angle.

You can visualize this "shrinkage" quite easily simply by holding up any two-dimensional printed target tilting it away from you. For example, the width of an 8 and 1/2 inch wide sheet of common notebook/copier paper becomes an apparent 6 inches, with only about a 20-degree shift.

Additionally, Mr. Awerbuck points out that shooting at a side-profile of a person, you only have a 4-inch wide target to work with, that by the time a target is bladed away from you by 45 degrees, this is all you have of their vital zone (this is alluded to when he presented the "folded" printed target in the "Target Selection" free "Tactical Tip" from Panteao, again available on YouTube as an abstracted segment:


Additional complications arise from anatomic concerns when the body is rotated in space, and these considerations are not visualized with standard 2-dimensional targets.

In June of 2015, this video popped up on the PDN - Firearms Training: Angles with 2D vs 3D Targets | PDN . Similarly, Mr. Claude Werner's excellent article "Why I hate the -3 Zone" also applies here, in-spades: Why I hate the -3 zone

< continued below >
 
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< continued from above >

So with this in-mind, let's go back to that "skull shot."

I know, I'm going back-and-forth, here, but bear with me, please. :)

Let's look at the CNS shot - typically portrayed in various two-dimensional targets as either the "eye box" (VTAC and Opsgear), "triangle of death" (what we called it in medical school - and is shown by targets such as those for The Reston Group and the Federal Air Marshal Service) or "the fatal T" (Glockstore/Lenny Magill head-shot overlay).

We are reminded by Awerbuck that this "kill zone" zone as it is printed on paper is only valid when the target is directly facing us in much the same manner that we view a flat-range 2-dimensional paper target. Why? Look at the anatomy - look at what we are actually shooting: we're not shooting "the brain" as a whole - that critical "eyebox/death triangle/fatal-T" delineates an area not only of material weakness in the bony structure that is our head, but also has further implications in terms of the areas of the brain which govern the vital functions that keeps us, as humans, alive. To-wit, Representative Gabrielle Giffords was "shot in the brain. Similarly, let's not forget this one - Boy survives arrow shot through the eye , each of which shows just how much difference a fraction of an inch - or even a variance in individual anatomy - can potentially make: Florida woman survives gunshot between the eyes

So again, we take that, and now we move back to the upper thoracic yet again - we should remember that similar implications carry over to the vital organs and large vessels in the "high center chest" critical area. Depending on how that target actually presents in real-time, in 3-dimensions, taking that "high center chest" shot may actually not produce the result we want (i.e. incapacitation) - that maybe the shot needed to have instead entered through the abdomen or even the crotch (i.e. the target is laying flat, with his groin facing you), or, in going back to the CNS example, maybe through the neck area in order to reach the anatomy that we need to disrupt.

Marksmanship is never a bad thing.

Having a bullet that performs well, terminally, is never a bad thing, either.

In addition to the above anatomic/physical considerations, Awerbuck also reminds us that the physical circumstances of the fight can also be used to explain why even trained shooters miss at even close range - that the rule of inverse proportions and simple angular geometry can demonstrate that a dynamic, moving target can well be easier to hit at 13 yards than it is to hit at 3, and that furthermore, at closer range, that angular deviation open up more of the backdrop, making Cooper's "Rule 4" all that much more important when shooting in the "real world."

So, as-usual, this is my embarrassingly long way of coming to the point that I want to make.....

It's all too easy to say that "combat effective" shooting is more than sufficient for "the real world," without realizing that "combat effective" is only valid in those dire moments, and that our shooting must be considerably better when we're just practicing by ourselves on the range or even when we're in a training class or competition, where the stresses are just not the same.

It's all too easy to say that "having a gun is better than not having one," versus insuring that we have "enough gun for the fight," let alone having put some thought into the terminal capabilities of the cartridges that one has filling the magazine.

That flat-range 2-dimensional target we're shooting at is far from "the real world," and getting "combat effective" hits on it does not translate to what we know of either anatomy or physics. "Combat accuracy" is not a measure of how well one can shoot. It's what the end-result is, after an actual life-or-death defensive event in which we have discharged our firearm. It accounts for our movements, that of the threat, and the four-thousand-and-one other factors that go into ahat defensive shootout that makes it so much more stressful than even the hardest drill/test we have run on the range. It's what our performance FALLS TO, from the height of perfection that we have attained and truly mastered in practice.

One of Clint Smith's "Clintisms" is that mediocre shooting is often all that's needed to win a gunfight. A corollary to that is the Clintism that he insists "we train to magnificence" so that we can fall to barely adequate when under pressure.

If one can only attain adequate or mediocre performance when under training stress, what will he/she fall to, when faced with a violent confrontation?

No-one ever wished they shot slower or were less accurate.

Yes, shooting more rounds, faster, inherently biases the BSA template and compromises accuracy.

That is true for everybody from the completely-fresh-to-shooting novice all the way to the most badass of ninja-killers and even top-tier competition shooters.

But our shots have to count. It has to count both in the form of our base performance behind the gun (our ability to deliver the shots where they are needed), and it has to count in the form of terminal ballistic performance. Terminal performance in the base form of penetration -because we've learned from the above that it's not necessarily going to be "belt-buckle-to-belt-buckle"- but if I can get some expansion, too, I'll definitely take that as gravy. ;)
 
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I have some 210 (200?) grain SWC-HP’s in .44spl, around 900fps. They shoot softly out of my 629 Mountain Gun, and are accurate as anything.

Pretty much a .45ACP equivalent.
I run .44 Specials in my S&W 329PD for practicing before switching to .44 mah loads when out in the woods.


The .44 Special makes the 329PD more tolerable to shoot, although I swapped out the factory grips for Hogues which made a noticeable difference in controlling .44 mags in it.
 
< continued from above >

So with this in-mind, let's go back to that "skull shot."

I know, I'm going back-and-forth, here, but bear with me, please. :)

Let's look at the CNS shot - typically portrayed in various two-dimensional targets as either the "eye box" (VTAC and Opsgear), "triangle of death" (what we called it in medical school - and is shown by targets such as those for The Reston Group and the Federal Air Marshal Service) or "the fatal T" (Glockstore/Lenny Magill head-shot overlay).

We are reminded by Awerbuck that this "kill zone" zone as it is printed on paper is only valid when the target is directly facing us in much the same manner that we view a flat-range 2-dimensional paper target. Why? Look at the anatomy - look at what we are actually shooting: we're not shooting "the brain" as a whole - that critical "eyebox/death triangle/fatal-T" delineates an area not only of material weakness in the bony structure that is our head, but also has further implications in terms of the areas of the brain which govern the vital functions that keeps us, as humans, alive. To-wit, Representative Gabrielle Giffords was "shot in the brain. Similarly, let's not forget this one - Boy survives arrow shot through the eye , each of which shows just how much difference a fraction of an inch - or even a variance in individual anatomy - can potentially make: Florida woman survives gunshot between the eyes

So again, we take that, and now we move back to the upper thoracic yet again - we should remember that similar implications carry over to the vital organs and large vessels in the "high center chest" critical area. Depending on how that target actually presents in real-time, in 3-dimensions, taking that "high center chest" shot may actually not produce the result we want (i.e. incapacitation) - that maybe the shot needed to have instead entered through the abdomen or even the crotch (i.e. the target is laying flat, with his groin facing you), or, in going back to the CNS example, maybe through the neck area in order to reach the anatomy that we need to disrupt.

Marksmanship is never a bad thing.

Having a bullet that performs well, terminally, is never a bad thing, either.

In addition to the above anatomic/physical considerations, Awerbuck also reminds us that the physical circumstances of the fight can also be used to explain why even trained shooters miss at even close range - that the rule of inverse proportions and simple angular geometry can demonstrate that a dynamic, moving target can well be easier to hit at 13 yards than it is to hit at 3, and that furthermore, at closer range, that angular deviation open up more of the backdrop, making Cooper's "Rule 4" all that much more important when shooting in the "real world."

So, as-usual, this is my embarrassingly long way of coming to the point that I want to make.....

It's all too easy to say that "combat effective" shooting is more than sufficient for "the real world," without realizing that "combat effective" is only valid in those dire moments, and that our shooting must be considerably better when we're just practicing by ourselves on the range or even when we're in a training class or competition, where the stresses are just not the same.

It's all too easy to say that "having a gun is better than not having one," versus insuring that we have "enough gun for the fight," let alone having put some thought into the terminal capabilities of the cartridges that one has filling the magazine.

That flat-range 2-dimensional target we're shooting at is far from "the real world," and getting "combat effective" hits on it does not translate to what we know of either anatomy or physics. "Combat accuracy" is not a measure of how well one can shoot. It's what the end-result is, after an actual life-or-death defensive event in which we have discharged our firearm. It accounts for our movements, that of the threat, and the four-thousand-and-one other factors that go into ahat defensive shootout that makes it so much more stressful than even the hardest drill/test we have run on the range. It's what our performance FALLS TO, from the height of perfection that we have attained and truly mastered in practice.

One of Clint Smith's "Clintisms" is that mediocre shooting is often all that's needed to win a gunfight. A corollary to that is the Clintism that he insists "we train to magnificence" so that we can fall to barely adequate when under pressure.

If one can only attain adequate or mediocre performance when under training stress, what will he/she fall to, when faced with a violent confrontation?

No-one ever wished they shot slower or were less accurate.

Yes, shooting more rounds, faster, inherently biases the BSA template and compromises accuracy.

That is true for everybody from the completely-fresh-to-shooting novice all the way to the most badass of ninja-killers and even top-tier competition shooters.

But our shots have to count. It has to count both in the form of our base performance behind the gun (our ability to deliver the shots where they are needed), and it has to count in the form of terminal ballistic performance. Terminal performance in the base form of penetration -because we've learned from the above that it's not necessarily going to be "belt-buckle-to-belt-buckle"- but if I can get some expansion, too, I'll definitely take that as gravy. ;)
How quickly, randomly and unexpectedly does someone move their head compared to their body ? It's all good and fine to define those parameters when you are talking about a static target. We train with " Robots". That is an upper body and head, on a pole, attached to a remote controlled base. Even though the head doesn't move independently, try taking head shots and compare them to HCM shots. You moving or standing still the results are still similar. Now add adrenalin. There is a reason why no LE agencies or legit instructors train for anything other than, multiple HCM shots in self defense scenarios.
 
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