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EDC for three years now

Bassbob said:
And if at some point during the confrontation someone starts threatening you with a GD crowbar you are allowed to defend yourself. I’m a free state anyway.

F yeah my CCW class teaches differently.
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so, we all know (or should know) each state is different in the view of the laws on the books. even (i'd venture to guess) so-called "free states", have differences between them.

i know what i can, and cannot do in my state, regarding going OUTSIDE with my firearm.

others know what they can and cannot do going OUTSIDE with his/her firearm.

that's about it, in a nutshell.
 
Bassbob said:
Well, I’m not commenting on the post. I can tell you in Missouri anyway if someone is breaking into your car on your driveway it is not illegal to confront them. It is however illegal to shoot them unless your life is threatened.

Also, the 21 foot rule is only a rule on the internet. It damn sure isn’t a law and someone charging you from say 30’ away might still kill you.
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About the 21 foot rule its actually a real thing not an internet myth. It has been used in law enforcement and been around since the 80s. Lt Dennis Tueller developed the training drill for fellow officers in the 80s. U.S. LawShield has some very good information on the subject. And yes you are correct that someone can still get you from 30 feet away.
 
I live in Florida and have studied FS 790.06 and the other relevant statutes both directly and via a highly respected self defense lawyers FL specific book on the subjece. Here’s my opinion, as it applies to Florida only, and only what I believe to be the legalities:

The “castle doctrine” applies to your home (and occupied car) and only after it’s been physically broken into or a reasonable belief that the attempt was in progress and that the force necessary to do so was in use. This includes attached garages and anything inside a fence that is constructed in a manner in which easy access is blocked (ie ya gotta climb a 6’ fence or break it down, a 3’ chain link doesn’t cut it).

The OP’s alarm system indicated a break-in open door, a violent felony. He is within his rights to shoot inside the house/garage no questions asked. Well..some questions but he has the presumption that the gov must overcome.
Open carry on your property is legal in Florida.
Exiting your home gun in hand is illegal EXCEPT that he was doing so to stop the commission of a violent felony. That is splitting a hair that a jury would probably have to decide if the police pushed the issue. If you live in a big city it’s likely going to court, the rest of us have Sheriff’s and DA’s that believe in the right to protect your self including your home.
On firing the shot- the firing of a warning shot in Florida is no different than actually shooting at someone. So, if you are doing so in the face of a threat on your property the rules of self defense apply. He had a crowbar, in the commission of violent felony, and didn’t drop it on command. The fact that it was a warning shot and not 2 to the chest is lucky for the bad guy and nothing else.
 
Bassbob said:
Yes, but in your home it must rise to the point of intent to commit a felony AND inflict bodily harm.
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If someone breaks into my home I think the point of intent to commit a felony is obvious. Im awake not woke so there wont be time to sit down with the other person and discuss the reason they broke in. I have a precious family to protect and have no hesitation to use deadly force and I do not want my family to suffer the loss of my life because I wasnt willing to use deadly force. At the same time as training and preparing I pray that I will never be put in that position. AND NOW back to the beginning post...... has budslave commented as to the validity of his post ???
 
dad said:
About the 21 foot rule its actually a real thing not an internet myth. It has been used in law enforcement and been around since the 80s. Lt Dennis Tueller developed the training drill for fellow officers in the 80s. U.S. LawShield has some very good information on the subject. And yes you are correct that someone can still get you from 30 feet away.
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Yeah, show me where it’s codified. We all know what it is, but it’s not a legal description. That is to say it’s only a “ Rule” as far as training goes, NOT a court of law.
 
Bassbob said:
No it doesn't. That's the same as saying if someone is ransacking your garage you are not allowed to go out and try to stop them. That's ridiculous and absolutely you going to protect YOUR property does NOT invalidate your use of deadly force, should your life be threatened. A while back there was a rash of hood rats coming out to the burbs and breaking into cars. Several people confronted some of these A holes. There were multiple instances where the perps pulled out guns after being yelled at to get out by the car owners. A couple of the car owners even exchanged gunfire with these guys. There were no charges filed and our sheriff made a point to remind people that you cannot shoot someone for breaking into your car, but if those people pull out guns when you confront them you are allowed to meet force with force. At least in the free states.

That said, we all know and almost universally agree that should you be the victim of a home invasion, tactically the best reaction is to get your family into a room and stay put, call 911 and be prepared to use deadly force if necessary. That doesn't mean however that you are not allowed to leave the safety of your room to protect your property and if you do you just gotta let the guy kill you. Frankly I cant even believe all you guys think that. It's kinda shocking.
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I think where the disagreement is, is that in most states you can't "DISPLAY" or "USE" deadly force to protect property. By leaving the residence and confronting the hoods that is a "DISPLAY" of deadly force to protect property and it would be against the law. Also, the mere act of firing the gun constitutes "USE" of deadly force to protect property. No different than pointing the weapon at the hoods, firing, and missing because your aim sucks. Almost all states have a castle doctrine but they had not yet entered the castle which is the sticking point. YES, protecting yourself from a crowbar is justification to use deadly force but by leaving the castle and confronting the hoods it can be argued that you initiated it so you are then not allowed to use deadly force in a situation you initiated.

Obviously, states like TX where you can legally shoot someone just for trespassing and FL with "stand your ground" have markedly different rules then the rules that most of us others exercising our 2A rights must adhere to. That is where they are coming from.
 
Bassbob said:
No it doesn't. That's the same as saying if someone is ransacking your garage you are not allowed to go out and try to stop them. That's ridiculous and absolutely you going to protect YOUR property does NOT invalidate your use of deadly force, should your life be threatened. A while back there was a rash of hood rats coming out to the burbs and breaking into cars. Several people confronted some of these A holes. There were multiple instances where the perps pulled out guns after being yelled at to get out by the car owners. A couple of the car owners even exchanged gunfire with these guys. There were no charges filed and our sheriff made a point to remind people that you cannot shoot someone for breaking into your car, but if those people pull out guns when you confront them you are allowed to meet force with force. At least in the free states.

That said, we all know and almost universally agree that should you be the victim of a home invasion, tactically the best reaction is to get your family into a room and stay put, call 911 and be prepared to use deadly force if necessary. That doesn't mean however that you are not allowed to leave the safety of your room to protect your property and if you do you just gotta let the guy kill you. Frankly I cant even believe all you guys think that. It's kinda shocking.
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I think where the disagreement is, is that in most states you can't "DISPLAY" or "USE" deadly force to protect property. By leaving the residence and confronting the hoods that is a "DISPLAY" of deadly force to protect property and it would be against the law. Also, the mere act of firing the gun constitutes "USE" of deadly force to protect property. No different than pointing the weapon at the hoods, firing, and missing because your aim sucks. Almost all states have a castle doctrine but they had not yet entered the castle which is the sticking point. YES, protecting yourself from a crowbar is justification to use deadly force but by leaving the castle and confronting the hoods it can be argued that you initiated it so you are then not allowed to use deadly force in a situation you initiated.

Obviously, states like TX where you can legally shoot someone just for trespassing and FL with "stand your ground" have markedly different rules then the rules that most of us others exercising our 2A rights must adhere to. That is where they are coming from.
 
Man. Why are none of you guys comprehending what you’re reading ? I’ve typed it ten times now. Last time. You are not protecting property with deadly force if someone is advancing toward you with a crowbar. Period. Your life is being threatened. You are defending your life. And the idea that in most states you are not allowed to have a gun on you while you confront a guy breaking into your garage is also patently absurd.

The OP has already been told he would have been justified to shoot the guy, as his life was being threatened. That’s the end of the story. And it’s damn sure the end of my participation in this thread. It’s like talking to a wall.
 
Bassbob said:
Man. Why are none of you guys comprehending what you’re reading ? I’ve typed it ten times now. Last time. You are not protecting property with deadly force if someone is advancing toward you with a crowbar. Period. Your life is being threatened. You are defending your life. And the idea that in most states you are not allowed to have a gun on you while you confront a guy breaking into your garage is also patently absurd.

The OP has already been told he would have been justified to shoot the guy, as his life was being threatened. That’s the end of the story. And it’s damn sure the end of my participation in this thread. It’s like talking to a wall.
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It is not a comprehension issue it is the laws in other states and the way these laws are interpreted and enforced in other states. I know what you are saying, "it don't make common sense and you are right" but that is what we have to deal with. Its all technicalities that end up being determined by a court of law for each instance that comes before them. They aren't even consistent with the rulings as alot of times the judge/and or jury's beliefs or leanings pro or anti 2A comes into play.

Let me break it down using the laws in my home state of NE and I will preface this by stating that we have a duty to retreat law except in our home (castle doctine) and our home means inside the physical abode, your outside private property is considered in public.

"I recently had an attempted break-in in our home Deland Florida. The perps were teenagers they tried to break into the agrage my house alarm went off. the keypad said that the side garage door was a jar. the wife and i have drills for these types of situations. We went out the front door with pistols at ready.
Big red flag 1: You left your castle so castle doctrine does not exists, it is now in public and the rules are different even on your own property.
Big red flag 2: In most states by going out the door with pistols at ready you are "DISPLAYING" deadly force and haven't yet verified that a threat exists and what it is. Brandishing a weapon is considered "DISPLAYING".

We confronted two kids with a crowbar and one kid waiting in a running truck. I told them to halt and put the crowbar down. they started to approach us.
Big red flag 3: By confronting them with weapons it was initiated by the homeowner regardless of the reason (you were attempting to stop a break in) and by law you can't use deadly force in a situation you initiated.

I fired three shoots in front of them into the ground.
Big red flag 4: You just "USED" deadly force and at that point they were presumedly guilty of breaking and entering and trespass.

The driver screamed get in the truck. they got in then backed away from us and sped off. the cameras got video of them. They also left finger prints on the garage door and our vehicles. They were apprehended five days later. As a responsible EDC that was the choice we made in 7 seconds. We are very happy they did not approach us and they chose to get in the truck as ordered. And we belive their parents are too."

I understand your argument and the naysayers are applying their state's laws to the situation as I just showed ours. BUT in all fairness, this happened in FL so the only laws that matter are FL laws and on that front you are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, most of others live by far stricter laws enacted by our prospective states.
 
Reading the OP’s story definitely leaves some holes and possible discrepancies…but he appears to “likely” be within the law, based upon the way the law in FL is written, and it would be the same in my state (God bless the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground). Whether his strategy was the best, brightest, moral, ethical or otherwise…that is a whole different discussion. Personally, I wouldn’t have gone outside…leaving the safety of the house. Calling the police and finding cover/concealment…more my mindset. My garage doesn’t house anything for which I’m willing to risk my life. Also, I don’t fire warning shots…if not willing to shoot someone, I don’t draw and point. That’s me.
 
DoubleAgent said:
I think we can all agree that self defense laws are absurdly grey areas. State to state your life value is either greater or lesser than a criminals....sick stuff. You should be able to defend whats yours. Period. Your life, family, friends, property.
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Agree, unfortunately in my state you can defend your life, family, and friends but not your property. I have lived in a country where they value personal property more than human life.

I lived in Panama City, Panama for 4 years and there they have armed guards with uzi's outside the exit doors of most of their stores. If you shoplift there, they radio out to the security guard and when you exit the store they shoot you, plain and simple, and its perfectly legal. I was walking down the street with 2 other guys in a bad area of Panama City (by necessities not by choice) and 3 guys stepped out of an alley in front of us. The leader flicked open a rather large switch blade and held it palm up at waist level to indicate they were armed and we were being robbed. I was carrying IWB over my wallet. Reached back as if to get my wallet and held out my Glock palm up at waist level to show him that he just brought a knife to a gun fight. He gave me a sly smile, closed his switchblade and they stepped back into the alley and we were on our way. At the next corner was a cop. We told him what happened and he just said OK and looked annoyed that he was now going to have to go check out the alley. There, they shoot first and ask questions later.
 
MAL said:
Reading the OP’s story definitely leaves some holes and possible discrepancies…but he appears to “likely” be within the law, based upon the way the law in FL is written, and it would be the same in my state (God bless the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground). Whether his strategy was the best, brightest, moral, ethical or otherwise…that is a whole different discussion. Personally, I wouldn’t have gone outside…leaving the safety of the house. Calling the police and finding cover/concealment…more my mindset. My garage doesn’t house anything for which I’m willing to risk my life. Also, I don’t fire warning shots…if not willing to shoot someone, I don’t draw and point. That’s me.
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This is my way of thinking too. I'm issuing verbal warnings, I'm barricading, and calling the police. If they wanna f*$# around and find out, they are going to have to be the aggressor. Doing all these three things can really help you legally in Castle states.
 
BreakingWind said:
It is not a comprehension issue it is the laws in other states and the way these laws are interpreted and enforced in other states. I know what you are saying, "it don't make common sense and you are right" but that is what we have to deal with. Its all technicalities that end up being determined by a court of law for each instance that comes before them. They aren't even consistent with the rulings as alot of times the judge/and or jury's beliefs or leanings pro or anti 2A comes into play.

Let me break it down using the laws in my home state of NE and I will preface this by stating that we have a duty to retreat law except in our home (castle doctine) and our home means inside the physical abode, your outside private property is considered in public.

"I recently had an attempted break-in in our home Deland Florida. The perps were teenagers they tried to break into the agrage my house alarm went off. the keypad said that the side garage door was a jar. the wife and i have drills for these types of situations. We went out the front door with pistols at ready.
Big red flag 1: You left your castle so castle doctrine does not exists, it is now in public and the rules are different even on your own property.
Big red flag 2: In most states by going out the door with pistols at ready you are "DISPLAYING" deadly force and haven't yet verified that a threat exists and what it is. Brandishing a weapon is considered "DISPLAYING".

We confronted two kids with a crowbar and one kid waiting in a running truck. I told them to halt and put the crowbar down. they started to approach us.
Big red flag 3: By confronting them with weapons it was initiated by the homeowner regardless of the reason (you were attempting to stop a break in) and by law you can't use deadly force in a situation you initiated.

I fired three shoots in front of them into the ground.
Big red flag 4: You just "USED" deadly force and at that point they were presumedly guilty of breaking and entering and trespass.

The driver screamed get in the truck. they got in then backed away from us and sped off. the cameras got video of them. They also left finger prints on the garage door and our vehicles. They were apprehended five days later. As a responsible EDC that was the choice we made in 7 seconds. We are very happy they did not approach us and they chose to get in the truck as ordered. And we belive their parents are too."

I understand your argument and the naysayers are applying their state's laws to the situation as I just showed ours. BUT in all fairness, this happened in FL so the only laws that matter are FL laws and on that front you are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, most of others live by far stricter laws enacted by our prospective states.
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my state's self defense laws.

The castle doctrine does not apply to violent crimes that take place outside the home. This means you must retreat or attempt to do so if faced with deadly force.
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www.thomasianlaw.com

Self-Defense in Rhode Island

Read our blog or contact The Law Office of Thomas C. Thomasian, Esq today to learn about the self-defense laws in Rhode Island.
www.thomasianlaw.com
 
Bassbob said:
No it doesn't. That's the same as saying if someone is ransacking your garage you are not allowed to go out and try to stop them. That's ridiculous and absolutely you going to protect YOUR property does NOT invalidate your use of deadly force, should your life be threatened. A while back there was a rash of hood rats coming out to the burbs and breaking into cars. Several people confronted some of these A holes. There were multiple instances where the perps pulled out guns after being yelled at to get out by the car owners. A couple of the car owners even exchanged gunfire with these guys. There were no charges filed and our sheriff made a point to remind people that you cannot shoot someone for breaking into your car, but if those people pull out guns when you confront them you are allowed to meet force with force. At least in the free states.

That said, we all know and almost universally agree that should you be the victim of a home invasion, tactically the best reaction is to get your family into a room and stay put, call 911 and be prepared to use deadly force if necessary. That doesn't mean however that you are not allowed to leave the safety of your room to protect your property and if you do you just gotta let the guy kill you. Frankly I cant even believe all you guys think that. It's kinda shocking.
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Agree with this 100%. I have stated that the plan for myself and the wife is to stay isolated in the bedroom and call 911. I'm not going to go searching in my home, garage, or grounds for problems, that is why I have insurance. If you break the plane of my bedroom door you are a threat and living in a CD state that is why I have Carry Insurance. When I am outside of my home I do practice situational awareness, yet have slightly different thoughts as it concerns my wife and I getting to safety.
 
Bassbob said:
Dude, I assume you can read. It’s not a case of someone just shooting into the ground for no reason IT WAS A SELF DEFENSE SITUATION. Again, for like the 5th time in this thread I’ll spell it out for you. Using your logic every self defense shooting is reckless endangerment. We are not arguing what would have been the smart move for the OP ( though personally now I’d like to hear your version) we are arguing legality. You have the right to confront people breaking into your buildings. And if you do, you better be armed or you’re an idiot. And if at some point during the confrontation someone starts threatening you with a GD crowbar you are allowed to defend yourself. In a free state anyway.

F yeah my CCW class teaches differently.
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Finally someone unferstands the LAW in the State of Florida. Thank you and have a great day.
 
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