Is Constitutional Carry a Mistake?

[Jekylmeister]

Sure ! It's sensible to encourage Relavent Competency , and Important Knowledge. Heck , thru my 2A volunteering I do a lot of imparting . And been known to spontaneously do it on my own .

It's the Government Mandated Poll Tax and Gatekeeping that's wrong .

And Murphy meeting green apples , most of the Government Mandated Curriculums impart very little skills or important knowledge . They are 90% plus just and additional Poll Tax , and time sucking barrier to discourage citizens from applying or following thru.

My apologies, but I do not understand what you're trying to say. I'm not sure what relevant competency means, but training is good. I have never seen anything I'd refer to as "govt mandated curriculums", nor would I endorse them. Gun shops/training centers/professionals, etc;, know best how to train folks to use firearms safely. All the govt's got to do is mandate that people that want to CCW have some level of training. I don't think there's anything particularly radical about that suggestion.

 

[Bassbob]

My apologies, but I do not understand what you're trying to say. I'm not sure what relevant competency means, but training is good. I have never seen anything I'd refer to as "govt mandated curriculums", nor would I endorse them. Gun shops/training centers/professionals, etc;, know best how to train folks to use firearms safely. All the govt's got to do is mandate that people that want to CCW have some level of training. I don't think there's anything particularly radical about that suggestion.

You don't see anything radical about the government putting conditions on law abiding citizens buying or using guns for their own defense ? What other rights do your sensibilities tell you the government should make mandates for ?

Who is it you think is going to dictate these mandates ?

 

[SL66]

No mandates required, natural selection will take care of it. That being said, the strong will be strong because they have the instinct to be trained and better prepared to deal with with "situations" as they present themselves. All others will fall behind from from the weight of conformation.

 

[Jekylmeister]

You don't see anything radical about the government putting conditions on law abiding citizens buying or using guns for their own defense ? What other rights do your sensibilities tell you the government should make mandates for ?

Who is it you think is going to dictate these mandates ?

BassBob, To somewhat repeat myself, no, I don't consider those to be 'conditions', any more than the need to demonstrate your ability to operate a motor vehicle before you're allowed to endanger the rest of us while driving one. I strongly believe in our right to defend ourselves, but we're selling firearms to people who are probably not the sort of people that should be carrying them. I also feel very strongly about our loss of a paper trail once a retail purchase is made. We/you can sell your firearm to anyone you like without any conditions whatsoever, which kind of negates our 'background check' process. In my humble opinion, we've got some big holes in our process from start to finish.

 

[Jfal]

BassBob, To somewhat repeat myself, no, I don't consider those to be 'conditions', any more than the need to demonstrate your ability to operate a motor vehicle before you're allowed to endanger the rest of us while driving one. I strongly believe in our right to defend ourselves, but we're selling firearms to people who are probably not the sort of people that should be carrying them. I also feel very strongly about our loss of a paper trail once a retail purchase is made. We/you can sell your firearm to anyone you like without any conditions whatsoever, which kind of negates our 'background check' process. In my humble opinion, we've got some big holes in our process from start to finish.

Driving is not a constitutionally-protected right.

 

[Bassbob]

BassBob, To somewhat repeat myself, no, I don't consider those to be 'conditions', any more than the need to demonstrate your ability to operate a motor vehicle before you're allowed to endanger the rest of us while driving one. I strongly believe in our right to defend ourselves, but we're selling firearms to people who are probably not the sort of people that should be carrying them. I also feel very strongly about our loss of a paper trail once a retail purchase is made. We/you can sell your firearm to anyone you like without any conditions whatsoever, which kind of negates our 'background check' process. In my humble opinion, we've got some big holes in our process from start to finish.

There shouldn't be a paper trail at all. This is America man. You are literally sitting here advocating restrictions and conditions for a constitutional right enshrined in the BOR. Any others you think need tweaking ? Regardless of what you think it really isn't a living breathing document. It means what it says, period.

A) The 1st amendment kills way more people than the 2nd.

B) If they can violate the 2nd amendment, they can violate any and all of them.

 

[The Night Rider]

I also feel very strongly about our loss of a paper trail once a retail purchase is made. We/you can sell your firearm to anyone you like without any conditions whatsoever, which kind of negates our 'background check' process. In my humble opinion, we've got some big holes in our process from start to finish.

Real thing that happened. I ran into a coworker in a gunstore who was attempting to buy a handgun. I was standing there when he failed the BGC.

He ended up hiring a lawyer and getting the issue corrected. According to him he was denied because of an old charge from California that was so old (again according to him) that there wasn't even a specific charge listed. The lawyer got the charge removed from his record.

All I know for sure is that he failed the background check and that he later passed a more stringent BGC to get his armed guard license.

Anyway to my knowledge no one ever investigated him for attempting to buy that gun.

I also know that people frequently fail the BGC and are not prosecuted. Convicted felons are frequently caught illegally in possession of firearms and almost never prosecuted for it.

In 2017, just 12 of the 112,000 people denied a gun purchase, about 0.01%, were federally prosecuted, largely due to limited resources for the time-intensive investigations, according to a U.S. Government Accountability Office report.Jun 22, 2021

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/06/22/background-checks-blocked-a-record-high-300000-gun-sales.html

So what's the point of a law that's almost never enforced?

 

[The Night Rider]

Although the pure, simple wording of the 2A makes me think that the Founding Fathers wouldn't mind me having a few bazookas, Stinger or Javelin missles.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

When the Second Amendment was ratified you could have legally owned your own warship and Artillery pieces

But the 2A protects a "well trained militia"

Actually it doesn't. The Second Amendment acknowledges the pre-existing Right of The People to keep and bear arms

 

[The Night Rider]

I tried to read through all nine pages of this discussion and it was just too much to go through at one sitting.

Nothing that I read as far as I read changed my initial opinion on this. The kind of people that will benefit from training will seek it out. The kind who won't you could make them sit in the class 8 hours a day for a week and they will ignore everything that you told them or they will retain just enough to pass the test and brain dump it as soon as they walk out of the class.

There are 29 states in America now that will allow their citizens to carry a handgun at their discretion with no permit or training required.

I'm not hearing that those 29 States have a higher rate of firearms related accidents. I'm not hearing that legal concealed carriers in those States are committing an abnormally large number of firearms related crimes. If State mandated training is so important to keep those things from happening why aren't we seeing it in the 29 states?

 

[somorris]

For anybody who thinks additional restriction and/or training should be required by the government in order to buy a firearm, tell that to the people (largely women) who were going through a lengthy waiting period or background check process and were killed while they were waiting because they were unable to defend themselves against a bigger/stronger aggressor. There are a lot of guns owners in the U.S., some with very little training. Although carelessness does happen, most people understand a firearm is a dangerous tool and treat it with respect. As far as I know, open carry has not caused a spike in firearm deaths. I would prefer to see someone openly carrying a firearm than leaving it in their car.

 

[The Night Rider]

If you really want to put government required training on a civil liberty we need to get rid of Social Studies in schools and start teaching Civics and the Constitution.

 

[trader]

ole Frank is right about that, social studies is reprogramming the school kids. He said quite a few things -

 

[trader]

just one more -

 

[Bassbob]

just one more -
View attachment 66925

Just watched an interview with Dweezil. That dude is a chip off the ol' block for sure. Absolute genius.

 

[Jekylmeister]

There shouldn't be a paper trail at all. This is America man. You are literally sitting here advocating restrictions and conditions for a constitutional right enshrined in the BOR. Any others you think need tweaking ? Regardless of what you think it really isn't a living breathing document. It means what it says, period.

A) The 1st amendment kills way more people than the 2nd.

B) If they can violate the 2nd amendment, they can violate any and all of them.

I respect your position and will only say that, in my observations, without boundaries, laws, limits, etc., people actually act very poorly, with little good judgement. The human species is far from an ideal one.

 

[Bassbob]

I respect your position and will only say that, in my observations, without boundaries, laws, limits, etc., people actually act very poorly, with little good judgement. The human species is far from an ideal one.

Well it’s been a long time for a lot of these states having permissionless carry. Doesn’t seem like your fears have been realized. Might be better to focus on actually locking up people that commit crimes with guns.

 

[3L120]

Some of the most lax trained on firearms are LEO’s. Standards are sub par on average
I say average
For folks who carry daily, they are sub par..

Then again so is military.. they train up front for most, then rarely after …

Gonna have to disagree with you. When police get n a shooting, it usually is very sudden and the target is usually moving and shooting back. When civilians get in a shooting, the distances are usually shorter, even VERY close. Harder to miss. Civilians also have the opportunity to disengage, which police don’t have.

 

[Bassbob]

Gonna have to disagree with you. When police get n a shooting, it usually is very sudden and the target is usually moving and shooting back. When civilians get in a shooting, the distances are usually shorter, even VERY close. Harder to miss. Civilians also have the opportunity to disengage, which police don’t have.

That doesn't change the fact that something like 40-60% of LEO nationwide shoot their guns once a year at quals.

 

[The Night Rider]

Civilians also have the opportunity to disengage, which police don’t have.

Cops are civilians.

 

[Biggfoot44]

My apologies, but I do not understand what you're trying to say. I'm not sure what relevant competency means, but training is good. I have never seen anything I'd refer to as "govt mandated curriculums", nor would I endorse them.

. Where I am , the Government recently promogulated a 79 page PDF , that MUST be tought verbatim, word for word , in the mandatory 16hr training class .

Takes a minimum of 6 hours , if the students sit down , shut up , and don't ask questions. But particularly since the manditory ciriculum is riddled with ambiguities and errors , there will be questions and discussions.

. Added in time for required topics not explicitly covered in PDF .

Add in time for block of absolute basics of shoot for the actual beginners .

. Add in the time for the logistics of running students thru the laughable COF .

If you're lucky , and students didn't ask too many question , you"ll have maybe an hour for meaningful Instruction .

Gun shops/training centers/professionals, etc;, know best how to train folks to use firearms safely.

Thru my work with 2A Org , speaking with butt loads of students about their experiences, and knowing many of the leading Instructors:

Some to many do .
Many others , more that 50% of what comes out of their mouths is factually incorrect .

General concensus is the new 79 page PDF makes any meanful imparting of intermediate level Competency impossible in the 16hr format . It becomes merely a Poll Tax .

Hypothetically, extending a 16 hr Class to 20 hr would allow 4 hr of real training . But everyone who put any feelers in that direction saw it to be a non starter . Both for the higher overhead > higher cost , and few potential students have the attention span / endurance/ available time for 12 hour training sessions, to fit into the typical 2 day format .

There are a couple people doing the occasional one day workshop, that is independent of the Licensing Regime. But it's kind of Self selecting to those already " into " shooting .

It's a hard sell to general public Permit Holders who just finished spending $500 ‐ish on the process, to turn around and spend another $200 ‐ish . And existing such endeavors aren't scalable up significantly.


Me personally? I'm about to do some more gratis personal coaching for someone with a goal of actual competence .