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Is Constitutional Carry a Mistake?

The Night Rider said:
Cops are civilians.
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Semantics amuck . Sensitive to the legitimate points of various contexts , I've been using these terms:

Being Subject to UCMJ is criteria for Military vs Civillian .

Powers and Obligations to Keep the Peace , Conduct Ivestigations , Apprehend Criminals , etc is criteria for LE vs General Public .

( Not withstanding the existence of Law Enforcement, And Counter Inteligence functions within the .Mil .)
 
As mentioned before, I don't remember learning or hearing about CC classes in the 1700's. Nor the 1800's. Not even until the late 1900's. All those decades (over a century), so little training...how did we ever survive? It is a constitutional right, full stop.
 
HansGruber said:
This.

This, this, THIS.

I truly love shoving this fact down LE’s throats when they claim that they’re different than “civilians”.

THEY AREN’T.
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They are however tasked with protecting the public and while they aren't legally bound, per the SCOTUS, to protect any specific individuals, they aren't going to keep their jobs long if they do what most (Smart) civilians do and first exhaust all viable options to remove yourself from the situation before resorting to gun fighting.
 
Bassbob said:
They are however tasked with protecting the public and while they aren't legally bound, per the SCOTUS, to protect any specific individuals, they aren't going to keep their jobs long if they do what most (Smart) civilians do and first exhaust all viable options to remove yourself from the situation before resorting to gun fighting.
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unless they might be a school resource officer, then that is exactly what many of them do...pensions you know.
 
Jfal said:
As mentioned before, I don't remember learning or hearing about CC classes in the 1700's. Nor the 1800's. Not even until the late 1900's. All those decades (over a century), so little training...how did we ever survive? It is a constitutional right, full stop.
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True, BUT we were primarily a rural society (even the city’s were small) and most people were raised with a working knowledge of firearms. Today, an awful lot of people are completely ignorant of firearms. Everyone who Carry’s a firearm should KNOW how to safely handle it. I certainly don’t know the answer-perhaps some basic training on the fundamentals at time of purchase for newbies? I believe citizens have a Right, but I also know they have a responsibility to themselves and their fellow citizens to safely exercise that right. I have seen ignorant people handling firearms in a very careless way (which is why I go out of my way to avoid one local range). Irresponsible handling of a firearm is in Nobody’s best interest.
 
Nah.

Huge damage is done to society by stupid people voting. But education requirements or IQ testing would be unthinkable, unacceptable , impossible , and if we're possible, would be subverted . [ And throw in also : Being familiar from an Anti state , the * Required Training * is 90% total crap , and doesn't effect the occasional occurrence of brain farts, carelessness , or stupidity . ]

But Hey , important skills and useful knowledge are Important Things , what could be actually done ?

A generation ago , I would have said making Hunter Safety or equivalent available as a meaningful credit in the schools. But nowadays the whole of the educational establishment has been taken over by neo Marxists , and would be subverted .

So then :

Tax Credits for an Entry Level class from " Nationally Recognized Firearms Training Org ".

Mfg / Distributors/ large dealers, say with stamp from NSSF , have a basic 1hr " Don't shoot yourself in the butt " seminar . Either a certificate for first time purchasers , or open to prospective purchasers . Yeah , it would cost a little , but it would gain good optics, spur sales , and shouldn't be to hard to set up with impratur of a non profit organization, to make the direct costs be a Charitable Donation in Kind .

My State 2A Org has Education in the Charter and part of the 501 C 3 status . When I'm frequently volunteering at events , I enjoy talking basic safety and gunhandling to prospective and new owners , as a switch up from the usual legal and political issues .

And at most basic levels , everyone mentor your family members , friends , and neighbors if they show any interest or inclination .
 
HansGruber said:
This.

This, this, THIS.

I truly love shoving this fact down LE’s throats when they claim that they’re different than “civilians”.

THEY AREN’T.
Click to expand...
You are correct. They are just the ones who go down dark alleys and areas, looking for an armed suspect. Civilians until you need someone to hide behind. Want to change LE, sign up as a Reserve Officer and make that change from within. Plot warning, though, your concepts may change when you are in the projects and Grape Street Crips start shooting at you for being on their turf.
 
3L120 said:
You are correct. They are just the ones who go down dark alleys and areas, looking for an armed suspect. Civilians until you need someone to hide behind.
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Too bad Jessica Gonzales' kids couldn't hide behind a cop. Too bad the kids in Uvalde couldn't hide behind a cop. Too bad Carolyn Warren couldn't hide behind a cop.

I mean I went down dark alleys looking for "suspects" as an unarmed security guard.

Bottom line, if you aren't subject to the UCMJ you're a civilian.

If you can't be stop lossed you're a civilian.

If you can't be recalled to active duty you're a civilian.

If you can't be sent halfway around the world for a year on short (or no) notice you're a civilian.

3L120 said:
Want to change LE, sign up as a Reserve Officer and make that change from within.
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Want to not be a civilian enlist.
3L120 said:
Plot warning, though, your concepts may change when you are in the projects and Grape Street Crips start shooting at you for being on their turf.
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Again, I can (and have) get shot at as an unarmed security guard.

In fact, I can (and have) get shot at walking my dog or sitting on my couch watching TV.


ETA

Cops have a different mission than the military.

There's a reason that the police are called The Civil Authorities.

Yes, cops have a job that can be dangerous. Firefighters have a job that's more dangerous.

Sanitation Workers have a job that's more dangerous.

So do roofers and high iron workers
 
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Personally I believe training is fundamental to knowing what is going on. Yes constitution carry is great but how many people actually go to a range and shoot to keep their muscle memory intact. I known a few people (here in Illinois) that got their CCL and don’t go shoot. I try to keep up with the forever changes in laws going on because the anti 2A would love to disarm people like us forever.
Yes I went and did the 16 hour classes to get my CCL and currently waiting on the background check portion of it. I do go shooting every weekend with the rookie number of firearms I do have. I also try to learn from my own mistakes and retain it to help others.
 
Jsimon78 said:
Personally I believe training is fundamental to knowing what is going on. Yes constitution carry is great but how many people actually go to a range and shoot to keep their muscle memory intact. I known a few people (here in Illinois) that got their CCL and don’t go shoot. I try to keep up with the forever changes in laws going on because the anti 2A would love to disarm people like us forever.
Yes I went and did the 16 hour classes to get my CCL and currently waiting on the background check portion of it. I do go shooting every weekend with the rookie number of firearms I do have. I also try to learn from my own mistakes and retain it to help others.
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While I also wish folks would find the desire to take 1 or 2 training classes a year from relevant training places (Rangemaster, Hearn, Haggard Brian Hill Lee Weems etc ETC) as well as practice


I have an issue with requiring it for a constitutional right. You’re not required to take a class to cast a vote or any other example.

Besides mandates classes are proven to check a box and not provide any relevance. Several states require a CCW class or whatever for their permit yet forbid class curriculum from requiring drawing from the holster….since CCw requires carrying Ina. Holster what’s the damn point other than feel good legislators in the state can act like they did something and people that had to take a class got zero from it.

Most licensed drivers had to pass a test with minimum standards AND practice driving everyday but still suck so a class wil not help unless the person WANTS to keep improving.

A gain I’m all for folks getting trained but they have to want it. I have a more enjoyable time teaching firearms classes to folks that aren’t required to take it than I do teaching agency staff that don’t want to be there but have to….state mandated CCW classes are the same way!
 
I do agree. I just wish people learn what ever they do. I live in a state that doesn’t like the 2ND amendment (I live in Illinois) and any time I want to learn something then I have a haul to get some experience or do what I’m doing now. As I always say “I rather be an educated idiot than a liberal”. I also tell people that are going for their CCL to go shoot at a range and have some fun.
 
Jsimon78 said:
Personally I believe training is fundamental to knowing what is going on. Yes constitution carry is great but how many people actually go to a range and shoot to keep their muscle memory intact. I known a few people (here in Illinois) that got their CCL and don’t go shoot. I try to keep up with the forever changes in laws going on because the anti 2A would love to disarm people like us forever.
Yes I went and did the 16 hour classes to get my CCL and currently waiting on the background check portion of it. I do go shooting every weekend with the rookie number of firearms I do have. I also try to learn from my own mistakes and retain it to help others.
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150 years ago, people didn't have classes, and open carry was widely the way of life if one wanted. Not everyone did open carry, but they could when they wanted or needed. That's an important choice. Hell, before that you could have a cannon if you could afford it, or a Gattlin Gun. Carrying a gun back then out in the open and not knowing WTF you were doing either taught you a lesson pretty quickly or thinned the herd. Open carry should be allowed federally IMO, but I'm on that thinks all citizens should have to serve at least 2 years active service by age 25 with an emphasis on combat training at Corp standards. Lastly, public schools used to have firearm training, and most don't even have driver training any more.....go figure!?
 
It's been approximately six months since we've had this discussion my opinion on mandatory training hasn't changed and I still think Cops are civilians.

I've given this topic some thought in the last 6 months and here's what I think.

Research indicates the human brain, specifically the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that processes rational thought, doesn't fully develop until approximately 25 years of age.

I think we should have phased majority. Not until 25 but from 18 to 21.

At 18 you can join the military (or the Air Force). If you're in the military you can vote. If if you're not in the military you can't vote or be drafted.

I checked and on average you must be 21 years old to be a police officer in the United States. You can go to the Police Academy at 18 but you have to be 21 to be hired.

So at 21 you get full majority You can vote. You can sign a contract. You can be drafted. You can buy a gun and carry as you see fit. You can buy alcohol.

I think this would change our country for the better.
 
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