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Michigan School Shooting

Experts claim that the minimum population requirement for a town is 300 people. The school I worked in had as many as 2000 kids every day. My point being that schools can have many of the same issues on a daily basis that one would expect to find in a town that size. School administrators can be overwhelmed with daily crisis and thus can become desensitized to the magnitude of a teacher's concern. This kid probably had a daily track record of misbehavior. I wouldn't doubt that this kid was in special ed and had an IEP, and the law requires that student have to be educated in the least restrictive environment. Besides many school systems are reluctant to place behavior problems in alternate programs because it's expensive and when they do, they end up putting all of their behavior problems in one basket. Those programs can be hellish to work in. The child in question had bigger problems than the school recognized, and the parents were clueless enablers who probably balked at getting outside help for their child. I walked the halls that were full of kids that I knew were going to bounce off every bumper in the pinball game of life. You see a lot of train wrecks in the making, but school systems are not fond of teachers who tell parents that their kid is most likely headed to a jail cell or a cemetery plot. It's sad, but if you polled the teachers who worked with that student probably most would admit that they were not surprised. Sadly, the signs were clearly there, but the whole system missed them, and 4 individuals paid the price. School systems that can afford it need to hire mental health workers that are empowered to force parents to seek professional help for their child who is in crises. To a certain degree, parents need to be held accountable for the actions of their children especially if they ignore problem behavior before it gets out of hand. I could give you dozens of examples as to why I feel this way.
 
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Keystone19250 said:
Following this and adding to it while watching the news this morning on the arrest of the parents authorities have found a text message from the mother to her son “the shooter” basically saying “next time you need to learn not to get caught” ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!
Talk about the bottom of the gene pool, some people should NEVER have children.
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It needs to be in context, her statement was in response to him being caught on his phone looking for ammo sellers. Like I said previously, horrible parents but not criminal...
 
Talyn said:
Not all parents are good parents, and often overlook how screwed up their kids are.

The worst of the lot shouldn't have kids, but tend to breed like rabbits.

My .02
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Surprisingly there are no studies that I've ever read that concluded that bad parents were the cause of bad kids or vice versa. Poor parenting skills are probably to blame, but many kids who grew up under terrible conditions go on to lead happy, productive lives. So go figure. I've sat with more than one parent who would tell me that they could do nothing with their child. When I suggested that they take away the expense cell phone, make them wear shoes from K-Mart and set up some hard and fast rules that the kids had to follow to earn their stuff back the parent would say that they just couldn't do that because then their kid would hate them. I finally came to believe that by the time a kid is a high school student it's probably too late to undue the results of underlaying causes, but you have to try. A lot is at stake.
 
C. Sumpin said:
"I taught my kids from a very early age the fundamentals of gun safety, they could handle them ONLY in my presence and then they were locked up. When they asked to see them I accommodated that and they were to show the safety they were being taught in handling ANY firearm."

Good Policy Pit.....but tell you what......back in the day, I never received any instruction on anything but in my house and all the farms around the boys knew not to touch those things standing in the corner or on the dresser top, and we never did. They did not have to be locked away to be left alone by us children. We sure are in a different day......and many parents act like a child so how do we expect a child to mature? Seems like the more "progressive" society becomes the less civilized we are. When my Mom or Dad (or relative, or neighbor, or teacher) said "No", that was the end of it. And a ringing ear from cuff on the side of the head or a boot to the butt was not defined as child abuse but correction and proper upbringing. And it was unheard of for a child to report/snitch his parents to the school "counselor". We reap what we sow...........
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"We are in a different day" could not be a truer statement. Seems we had a similar upbringing. We were taught gun safety and respect at a relatively young age (12ish). My father had a loaded Colt M1911A1 .45 in the top drawer of his dresser (which I inherited). It was not locked up and all 6 of us kids knew it was there and it would not have ever crossed any of our minds to even attempt to touch it without the express permission of, and in the presence of my father. In school, I was bullied a little and was labelled as one of those students that had some disciplinary problems because of some "head butting" with certain holier than thou teachers. Not once did I ever consider shooting up my school and it would have been easy considering I, as well as most of the male students that owned pick-up trucks in those days had a various assortment of rifles filling our truck mounted rifle racks sitting right out in the parking lot.
 
Recusant said:
Surprisingly there are no studies that I've ever read that concluded that bad parents were the cause of bad kids or vice versa. Poor parenting skills are probably to blame, but many kids who grew up under terrible conditions go on to lead happy, productive lives. So go figure. I've sat with more than one parent who would tell me that they could do nothing with their child. When I suggested that they take away the expense cell phone, make them wear shoes from K-Mart and set up some hard and fast rules that the kids had to follow to earn their stuff back the parent would say that they just couldn't do that because then their kid would hate them. I finally came to believe that by the time a kid is a high school student it's probably too late to undue the results of underlaying causes, but you have to try. A lot is at stake.
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Good examples of good people who are parents that contribute to their kids being screwed up, and don;t recognize that.

But that being said, there are kids that grow up in crappy conditions with crappy parents that dig themselves out of those holes and end up as successful/good citizens. But those are the exception vs the rule, considering the amount of inner city crime that occurs and/or kids going bad otherwise.

The very high rates of kids born out-of-wedlock in most racial groups is another tell-tale factor.
 
BreakingWind said:
"We are in a different day" could not be a truer statement. Seems we had a similar upbringing. We were taught gun safety and respect at a relatively young age (12ish). My father had a loaded Colt M1911A1 .45 in the top drawer of his dresser (which I inherited). It was not locked up and all 6 of us kids knew it was there and it would not have ever crossed any of our minds to even attempt to touch it without the express permission of, and in the presence of my father. In school, I was bullied a little and was labelled as one of those students that had some disciplinary problems because of some "head butting" with certain holier than thou teachers. Not once did I ever consider shooting up my school and it would have been easy considering I, as well as most of the male students that owned pick-up trucks in those days had a various assortment of rifles filling our truck mounted rifle racks sitting right out in the parking lot.
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IMO the downhill slide began in the late 60's and through the 70's due to changing social norms/behavior.

Then the kids that got screwed up in those time periods started having kids and perpetuated the slide.
 
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KF1977 said it best when he said this: "I’m a firm believer its not about guns. Its about the person.
Some of the worst tragedies in this nation involved the use of a fertilizer bomb and airplanes. There is a will, there is a way."

He's obviously right. It's never been about the gun. That's simply an inanimate object. Guns were used from the beginning of the country as tools and implements to help sustain life. Guns helped create and maintain a civilized society in the beginning. And guns have been used time after time to set things straight when some self appointed tyrants and/or dictators tried taking over the world. Guns are not inherently bad.

Unfortunately they are also now being used as the tool of choice by some for these evil deeds. Maybe some of these kids who do these kinds of things are the same ones who were presented with 'Participation' trophies, instead of being taught how to earn them.

Maybe just me !!! (y)(y)(y)
 
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Old_Me said:
here is the way "i see it"..

the father took the son to look at and buy a gun a few days before the shooting.

now in of itself, that could have been just a father and son day, that the dad wanted for his son to see what he was buying for himself (the dad)

in all U.S. States, there is an "age of majority" or legal age for children to reach, before they are considered as "adult"

this kid, was UNDER the legal age, and as such the parents had at least one gun in the house, that the kid certainly proved, he had access to.

was it locked up?

i think not, from what i have read thus far.

meaning the gun was with-in easy reach.

the parents SHOULD be accessories to the murders, due to negligence on thier part to not have the gun locked up.

had it BEEN locked up, and the kid broke into the lock box? i think that would (in some way) exonerate the parents.

as "i see it", the parents FAILED, and since the kid IS UNDER the legal age, they ought to answer to the crime(s), in effect, accepting responsibility for an underage child's actions.
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Woulda, coulda, shoulda... None of those thing done in and of themselves are criminal. There is no law in Mich requiring that firearms be locked up as is there no law against a 15 year old owning a handgun. They can't purchase one at that age but they can own one and use one to hunt with if accompanied by an adult. Legal pundits and talking heads are already pointing out the challenges of a conviction on the particular statue they are charging. You can definately make a case for negligence BUT does it rise to the level of criminal within the confines of the law? Me thinks not. I still concede that the parents are horrible parents but there is no law against being horrible parents.

Thing is the moral culpability aspect needs to be removed, it needs to be looked at purely from a legal perspective.
 
BreakingWind said:
Woulda, coulda, shoulda... None of those thing done in and of themselves are criminal. There is no law in Mich requiring that firearms be locked up as is there no law against a 15 year old owning a handgun. They can't purchase one at that age but they can own one and use one to hunt with if accompanied by an adult. Legal pundits and talking heads are already pointing out the challenges of a conviction on the particular statue they are charging. You can definately make a case for negligence BUT does it rise to the level of criminal within the confines of the law? Me thinks not. I still concede that the parents are horrible parents but there is no law against being horrible parents.

Thing is the moral culpability aspect needs to be removed, it needs to be looked at purely from a legal perspective.
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We just saw 3 convicted for the actions of one. The actions of the one would likely not have been carried out without the 'moral support' of the others.
No, we cannot legislate morality, but we should do all we can to ensure that those who directly contribute to an incident are held responsible for their contributions.
 
jumpinjoe said:
Just a simple question ...... but aren't parents responsible to some extent for their lid's actions until the kids are of legal age?
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I read an article and can't quote the exact quote but can convey the thought the legal analyst was conveying about one of the reasons why it will be difficult to convict the parents for the actions of their minor child.
They stated the case where the parent of a 6 year old that shot a playmate was convicted of involuntary manslaughter due to the age of the child and is his inability to know the results or consequences of his actions making the parent liable. But he stated with teens it is a different standard and because they do know the results and consequences of their actions it adds a layer of separation. If the parents did not conspire with the child to commit this crime they could not have reasonably known that their child would do this. Also why he is being charged and tried as an adult at 15 years old.
 
Classified said:
No, we cannot legislate morality, but we should do all we can to ensure that those who directly contribute to an incident are held responsible for their contributions.
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Agree to disagree, unintended consequences are a fact of life, we have all done those things in our lives that are recalled by the statement starting "hindsight being 20/20", granted those didn't result in the death of 4 people (I hope). I would not even disagree if the parents are charged with something as a result of their negligence I just don't agree that 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter with a maximum punishment of 60 years is the correct statue to be charging. Now granted, as I stated from the onset, using the information that is currently available, and as more and more comes out, as it will, then I may be persuaded to change my mind, but it would have to be one hell of a bombshell.
 
Keystone19250 said:
Following this and adding to it while watching the news this morning on the arrest of the parents authorities have found a text message from the mother to her son “the shooter” basically saying “next time you need to learn not to get caught” ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!
Talk about the bottom of the gene pool, some people should NEVER have children.
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I may be mistaken but I think that text was about him searching for ammo during class. Still a 😲 response on the mother's part.

I also think that if the parents are to be charged then the staff of the school should be held to partial responsibility also.
 
papa said:
I also think that if the parents are to be charged then the staff of the school should be held to partial responsibility also.
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I agree. The administrators in the school may have dropped the ball that day. As to why they didn't alert the school resource officer is another mystery. or if they did why wasn't some action taken. We'll just have to wait until all of the facts come out. I'm sure there is bound to be lots of finger pointing, and while school personnel probably wouldn't be charged, I'll bet lots of lawsuits will result. I feel bad for the teacher who reported him, and nothing came of it that could have prevented this tragedy.
 
papa said:
I may be mistaken but I think that text was about him searching for ammo during class. Still a 😲 response on the mother's part.

I also think that if the parents are to be charged then the staff of the school should be held to partial responsibility also.
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You are right, he was caught searching on his phone for ammo sellers. I agree with your statement about culpability of the school as well. The talking heads are making all this noise about his parents not immediately removing him from classes after their school conference. Well, if it was so damn important why did the school allow him to remain? As I said earlier, "hindsight being 20/20"...
 
Classified said:
No, we cannot legislate morality, but we should do all we can to ensure that those who directly contribute to an incident are held responsible for their contributions.
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That's also a slippery slope. Biden Admin is trying to repass the law that gun manufacturers be held civilly responsible for damages done by their weapons because they know that they can cause injury and/or death if someone is shot to force gun manufactorers out of business.
 
Recusant said:
I agree. The administrators in the school may have dropped the ball that day. As to why they didn't alert the school resource officer is another mystery. or if they did why wasn't some action taken. We'll just have to wait until all of the facts come out. I'm sure there is bound to be lots of finger pointing, and while school personnel probably wouldn't be charged, I'll bet lots of lawsuits will result. I feel bad for the teacher who reported him, and nothing came of it that could have prevented this tragedy.
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did the school even HAVE a resource officer, given that many "snowflakes" want to defund the police..???
 
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