NEWBIE NEEDS ADVISE

[Talyn]

But does bear spray work on bears?

There is no valid scientific research that has proved bear spray works on wild bears.

I can write the OC does not work on vicious dogs.

Baloney.

There's plenty of valid scientific research done, over years, that has proven it works on bears.

Developed and tested out west on captive bears by the primary two main companies that make it (UDAP & Counter Assault), & has been proven as an effective deterrent (nothing is 100%) in that testing and in real life use.

NPS

Wiki

NatGeo article

 

[fordag]

... I'm completely green under the collar with guns and would appreciate any advise on what is a good 1st time weapon...

I would suggest an inexpensive .22 caliber pistol. Anything else is going to help you build a good flinch that can stay with you for the rest of your life. Go to the range regularly and practice with it.

 

[fordag]

Baloney.

There's plenty of valid scientific research done, over years, that has proven it works on bears.

Developed and tested out west on captive bears by the primary two main companies that make it (UDAP & Counter Assault), & has been proven as an effective deterrent (nothing is 100%) in that testing and in real life use.

NPS

Wiki

NatGeo article

“The claim that bear spray works better than a firearm to protect you from bears is junk science”

"The claim that bear spray works better than a firearm to protect you from bears is junk science" - The Truth About Guns

Back in 2015, Jake Purlee and his friends were hunting elk and wolves. Encountering evidence of bears, they decided to leave the area. The two hunters and two companions were returning to their truck after an exhausting and wet hunt in fog and a foot of snow. They were attacked by a sow grizzly...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

Just last month a woman in Saskatchewan, Canada was killed by a black bear. When her husband sprayed the bear with bear spray, it just made the bear more angry.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/woman-dead-bear-attack-northern-sask-1.5695817
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sask...-while-on-the-phone-with-her-father-1.5697706

"[her husband]... sprayed the bear with pepper spray, and the bear got more angry."

 

[BET7]

I don't know your gender @AliOop, but if a previous poster is correct that you are female, Beth Alcazar (a contributor to USCCA carry insurance), writes a lot of articles and does videos geared towards women. Below is an article she wrote on getting started in concealed carry, which also contains links to related articles (like good guns for a beginner), that also contain links (by different authors), and so on. This article and subsequent links, is not specifically only for women, but both genders interested in this subject.

Beginner Series: 3 Tips for Getting Started in Concealed Carry

Concealed Carry Beginner Series: Basics and essentials for getting your bearings when you’re ready to start the concealed carry journey. Find out more…

www.usconcealedcarry.com

 

[jumpinjoe]

Ali, I won't begin to argue or debate anyone's advice here, except to say that I too have taught/trained many females in the use of handguns over about 45 yrs of instructing. Young singles/college girls, widows, women wanting to get into some kind of competitions, and many others who have decided to shoot and/or carry for whatever and various reasons. One thing I have found from experience is those women who have absolutely no experience with guns, will more often that not shy away from the 45's after just a few shots.

They are big and heavy for most typical women, they make a whole lot of noise, a lot more than some women are willing to put up with, and the recoil will actually hurt most typical (especially smaller framed) women. And then there is the issue of 'limp wristing', unless you are bigger and stouter than most women. What that is is a condition where the wrist/hand strength of the shooter is simply not sufficient to over come the recoil of whatever particular semi-auto they are shooting and because of that the gun will sometimes fail to re-cock the action. It may even fail to eject the spent case.

Now, my only reason for adding this post is to encourage you to rent, buy, beg, borrow or steal someone's 45 semi before you put down your money. I don't know a single thing about you except your admitted experience level but a desire to learn, but as I mentioned, if you are typical of the female set (that's a compliment, not a slight) it's likely to be too much for you to shoot comfortably or competently. If on the other hand you're an OTR, cigar smoking, tobacco chewing, beer drinking, ass kickin' truck driver who weighs around 200+ pounds, (if that's the case then that's also a compliment ) it may just be perfect for you. But, to be on the safe side, just try one before you buy one. Yes, you can always re-sell it if you don't like it, but why. Get what works for you the first time and you'll get a lot more for your money. And you'll enjoy it much more.

 

[somorris]

They are big and heavy for most typical women, they make a whole lot of noise, a lot more than some women are willing to put up with, and the recoil will actually hurt most typical (especially smaller framed) women. And then there is the issue of 'limp wristing', unless you are bigger and stouter than most women. What that is is a condition where the wrist/hand strength of the shooter is simply not sufficient to over come the recoil of whatever particular semi-auto they are shooting and because of that the gun will sometimes fail to re-cock the action. It may even fail to eject the spent case.

Thank you for that post, Jumpinjoe. I just spent a few minutes reading through this thread again, and I cannot for the life of me see how all the advice (most of it good) is going to be of much help to Ali. Like you, I assume Ali is female, but that is just an assumption. Even in this thread, there are posters saying "do this" while others are saying "no, do that" and enough back and forth that even Annie Oakley would probably get confused, let alone someone new to guns and shooting, just looking for something to protect themselves with. On top of that, this is the internet where everyone is an self-proclaimed expert.

Good luck, Ali! Get with someone experienced whom you trust and go with their advice. As you can see from this thread, no matter which way you go, you are bound to be right/wrong!

 

[SCfromNY]

I agree with there is no "one stop myth" well unless you carry a S&W .500 Magnum. Also not a fan of revolvers. Not easy to learn on. Difficult DA trigger and recoil will prevent you from looking forward to practice. I have never seen the terrible jump of the .40 and kinda like the round. If you don't start with a micro you should be able to learn control.

Go to a gun store or friends and shoot multi guns and calibers and find out what is comfortable for practice. My next suggestion will be split 50/50. Join a shooting club: USPSA or IDPA. It will make you faster, more accurate, and confident. You will also make friends. Be wary of the overly friendly "EXPERT" Don't worry about score for a while. Have fun. Some will say "Gaming" is not self defense. They are wrong.

 

[Talyn]

“The claim that bear spray works better than a firearm to protect you from bears is junk science”

"The claim that bear spray works better than a firearm to protect you from bears is junk science" - The Truth About Guns

Back in 2015, Jake Purlee and his friends were hunting elk and wolves. Encountering evidence of bears, they decided to leave the area. The two hunters and two companions were returning to their truck after an exhausting and wet hunt in fog and a foot of snow. They were attacked by a sow grizzly...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

Just last month a woman in Saskatchewan, Canada was killed by a black bear. When her husband sprayed the bear with bear spray, it just made the bear more angry.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/woman-dead-bear-attack-northern-sask-1.5695817
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sask...-while-on-the-phone-with-her-father-1.5697706

"[her husband]... sprayed the bear with pepper spray, and the bear got more angry."

Where did I say it was better? What I did say was..." has been proven as an effective deterrent (nothing is 100%) in that testing and in real life use."

In the link you posted they sprayed into the wind (I was spraying, but the spray wouldn’t go more than 10’ and, at this moment, she was at 15’.

The spray was out in what felt like just a couple of seconds and the wind had pushed it back into our faces. It burned my eyes, lips, and nose like hell. We were all coughing and wheezing immediately.

Well, the article said the bear spray failed but it was used under the worst conditions, and they had to reload to finally stop the bear.

Comparing incidents in various locations isn't valid, and the Alaska studies said as much,... "The studies use significantly different types of encounters in their data sets. The comparisons are not valid."

That being said there are many documented incidents were bear spray deterred a bear attack. Do know all the circumstances of the attack in Canada besides reading one sentence?

Lastly, the meat of the discussion in the article never said,...“The claim that bear spray works better than a firearm to protect you from bears is junk science”, but the author took liberties with one sentence by adding the words, "junk science" to the article's title for drama.

I live in griz country and know the agency/University folks who/where bear spray was developed so to say bear spray is junk science just shows ignorance of who/where it was developed & the years of testing that went into it.

 

[fordag]

Where did I say it was better? ...
...Do know all the circumstances of the attack in Canada besides reading one sentence?
...to say bear spray is junk science...

-I did not say that you said anything. I pasted the title of the article I linked to.
-I know what was written in the few articles I've read on the recent bear attack. Do you know more than what was reported? What are your sources?
-I did not say "bear spray is junk science" I posted a link to an article that says: “The claim that bear spray works better than a firearm to protect you from bears is junk science” Did you read the article?

 

[Talyn]

-I did not say that you said anything. I pasted the title of the article I linked to.
-I know what was written in the few articles I've read on the recent bear attack. Do you know more than what was reported? What are your sources?
-I did not say "bear spray is junk science" I posted a link to an article that says: “The claim that bear spray works better than a firearm to protect you from bears is junk science” Did you read the article?

Yes I did & explained the points above.

My education & career was in Wildlife Science, I'm very familiar with bear behavior, and have grizzly & black bears right out my front door.

And the folks in the incident shot the bear 7 times with magnums, with the first not "fazing" the bear. Yes the rifles worked but what wouldn't be stopped after being shot 7 times?

I don't need to dig into the Canada incident since you threw it in initially.

 

[AliOop]

Here's another interesting article on firearm purchases @AliOop (For your reading pleasure ).

NRA Family | How to Pick the Best Gun: Rent One!

Think of it as speed-dating...with firearms.

www.nrafamily.org

I have 2 ranges very close to me, I'll see if they offer gun rentals so I can get a better feel for what I will wind up buying. I do like that suggestion so thank you to everyone that mentioned this option

 

[AliOop]

I don't know your gender @AliOop, but if a previous poster is correct that you are female, Beth Alcazar (a contributor to USCCA carry insurance), writes a lot of articles and does videos geared towards women. Below is an article she wrote on getting started in concealed carry, which also contains links to related articles (like good guns for a beginner), that also contain links (by different authors), and so on. This article and subsequent links, is not specifically only for women, but both genders interested in this subject.

Beginner Series: 3 Tips for Getting Started in Concealed Carry

Concealed Carry Beginner Series: Basics and essentials for getting your bearings when you’re ready to start the concealed carry journey. Find out more…

www.usconcealedcarry.com

Yes I am, thanks for the link

 

[AliOop]

So it seems everyone has varying opinions as to why one weapon is better than the other, some interesting points, some I don't fully understand yet but still like reading all the comments. This is why I popped on here, one or two opinions are nice but I like to have more than that and eventually it will be nice to discuss things...once I learn more of course.

As I mentioned in one of my replies, I will see where I can do a rental to get a better feel for handling a gun....love this idea! I called one of the 2 ranges that are close to me with a different question and they didn't even mention that option so I had no idea this was even available to me.

As a side note, since I have no bears anywhere near me that I am aware of, the bear spray is an option for protection from the loonies only.....and a comical option I might add. Comical for me, maybe not for the recipient of said spray

If I don't get back on here before the weekend, I wish everyone a happy and safe Labor Day! Stay away from those wild and crazy bears

 

[BET7]

So it seems everyone has varying opinions as to why one weapon is better than the other, some interesting points, some I don't fully understand yet but still like reading all the comments. This is why I popped on here, one or two opinions are nice but I like to have more than that and eventually it will be nice to discuss things...once I learn more of course.

As I mentioned in one of my replies, I will see where I can do a rental to get a better feel for handling a gun....love this idea! I called one of the 2 ranges that are close to me with a different question and they didn't even mention that option so I had no idea this was even available to me.

As a side note, since I have no bears anywhere near me that I am aware of, the bear spray is an option for protection from the loonies only.....and a comical option I might add. Comical for me, maybe not for the recipient of said spray

If I don't get back on here before the weekend, I wish everyone a happy and safe Labor Day! Stay away from those wild and crazy bears

You have a good Labor day weekend as well Ali, and let us know how you progress during this process and please continue to ask any question you may have. Good luck with your firearm journey.
BTW: Interesting story. I use to work for a guy named Dan Ryan, and while in Chicago several times for IBM classes with some colleagues, we always contemplated getting one of the signs off the "Dan Ryan Express" (no relation), to give to him . Chicago was always a fun city (no shootings around my location at that time). I enjoyed my time there a lot.

 

[jumpinjoe]

So it seems everyone has varying opinions as to why one weapon is better than the other, some interesting points, some I don't fully understand yet but still like reading all the comments. .........."

"............. If I don't get back on here before the weekend, I wish everyone a happy and safe Labor Day! Stay away from those wild and crazy bears

And to you as well Ali. Love that handle BTW.

Now, whether you find some guns to try or not, don't hesitate to get back on here and ask away. You mentioned there were some posts you didn't quite understand. There are some really nice and experienced people on here (and one damned grouch ) and any of them/us will be more than happy to offer whatever help we can.

If/when there is something offered that you don't understand, ask again. Or ask for more clarity. Or ask for another explanation. No one here will take any offense to your asking a second time..... or third..... or ..... or.....

Just always remember that opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one. They won't all be the same by any means. But you can sort them out with time and it'll all begin to make sense.

And welcome to the world of firearms/shooting. A lot more fun than a stick in the eye !!!!

 

[Lchtus]

So it seems everyone has varying opinions as to why one weapon is better than the other, some interesting points, some I don't fully understand yet but still like reading all the comments. This is why I popped on here, one or two opinions are nice but I like to have more than that and eventually it will be nice to discuss things...once I learn more of course.

As I mentioned in one of my replies, I will see where I can do a rental to get a better feel for handling a gun....love this idea! I called one of the 2 ranges that are close to me with a different question and they didn't even mention that option so I had no idea this was even available to me.

As a side note, since I have no bears anywhere near me that I am aware of, the bear spray is an option for protection from the loonies only.....and a comical option I might add. Comical for me, maybe not for the recipient of said spray

If I don't get back on here before the weekend, I wish everyone a happy and safe Labor Day! Stay away from those wild and crazy bears

Hey AliOop -

I am in IL as well, near west Chicago burbs. You hit it right on. Read, educate, and go shoot at the range. If you are near Chicago ammo will be tough to find, but if not you are better off.

Everyone will have different opinions, but you will see the trends. In the end answer some of those key questions and begin to shoot and try them out.

IL has some pretty high conceal carry laws. I had to take a 16 hour course and pass a shooting test (not hard). If anything else they teach you all the basics and IL law. If you have not looked into it, or some basics firearm courses its good to do that. You will get a better feel for what you like.

If you are around Chicago PM me, happy to point you to some friendly ranges that are not crooks... as well as ammo spots.

 

[Lchtus]

I also live S.W. of Chicago,good luck finding a firearm in stock.
Most shops near me won't even take a deposit or order anymore.

i must have missed this thread. Fellow chicagoans... I too am straight west. I would suggest Shoot Point Blank in Hodgkins (just because they have a large amount if rentals). Staff is so so, their instructors are awesome. The range at 355 is where i buy because it is cheaper and inventory comes in faster (and not cook county, and Hodgkins gets busy...I was taking a class in the AM last week and they sold Out of 100k of 9mm in 4 hours at 5 box limits).

Anyway, let us know how we can help. Seriously dont do the journey solo. These people on this forum are great.

 

[SATRP]

Baloney.

There's plenty of valid scientific research done, over years, that has proven it works on bears.

Developed and tested out west on captive bears by the primary two main companies that make it (UDAP & Counter Assault), & has been proven as an effective deterrent (nothing is 100%) in that testing and in real life use.

NPS

Wiki

NatGeo article

Can you post links?

Thanks

 

[SATRP]

So it seems everyone has varying opinions as to why one weapon is better than the other, some interesting points, some I don't fully understand yet but still like reading all the comments. This is why I popped on here, one or two opinions are nice but I like to have more than that and eventually it will be nice to discuss things...once I learn more of course.

As I mentioned in one of my replies, I will see where I can do a rental to get a better feel for handling a gun....love this idea! I called one of the 2 ranges that are close to me with a different question and they didn't even mention that option so I had no idea this was even available to me.

As a side note, since I have no bears anywhere near me that I am aware of, the bear spray is an option for protection from the loonies only.....and a comical option I might add. Comical for me, maybe not for the recipient of said spray

If I don't get back on here before the weekend, I wish everyone a happy and safe Labor Day! Stay away from those wild and crazy bears

Da Bears have disappeared from Chicago decades ago ;-)

 

[Classified]

Baloney.

There's plenty of valid scientific research done, over years, that has proven it works on bears.

Developed and tested out west on captive bears by the primary two main companies that make it (UDAP & Counter Assault), & has been proven as an effective deterrent (nothing is 100%) in that testing and in real life use.

NPS

Wiki

NatGeo article

Captive though, thats like comparing Vin Diesel to John Wayne. If I knew I was going to be fed and cared for I wouldnt rush into a fight, but if I had to fight for every meal, you might be on the menu.