javbike
Hellcat
I agree totally not everyone can do the military thing but their are others areas that would benefit from this
No politics involved
- Thread starter TEXASforLIFE
- Start date
TEXASforLIFE
SAINT
On the down side would gang bangers be more profeciant in a bad way of course or would there be less of them? Training criminals wouldn't be a good thing!
KillerFord1977
SAINT
I am saying the Swiss allow current conscripts to have the weapons in their home and the Swiss population has extremely low rates of violent crime. due in part to criminals know almost everyone is armed
TidalWave
Professional
Tex, you are essentially describing what our public school systems (aye, and colleges) have become: child care. Except it’s “child care for post-school young adults until they figure out what to do with themselves.” Trouble is, after a couple years ‘public service’ they still won’t know - we’ve just eased the child/adult demarcation line out even further.
The military will do child care over LTC Tidal Wave’s cold, dead body.
********* break, break ********
Going to a slightly different angle: The problem is not that we need to extend gov’t care or life supervision out longer and longer ( calling it ‘service they can get something out of’ )… its the exact opposite, you see. Extend the school year ( ie, shorten the excessive summer break) and offer the base high school diploma at the end of 10th or 11th grade. Perhaps 2 years free trade/craft training at community college for those that want it (use the $ saved) and/or an extra year or two at high school for the academically inclined (college prep). But those that wanna hit the workforce at 17 could do so. The kids know how to read, never mind what the eggheads on TV say.
Point is, the maturity factor needs to kick in sooner, not later.
Wasn’t all that long ago you started carrying your load at 13 or 14. I don’t advocate that at all.
but we keep looking for some way to do something with our young people, from Obama’s free college for everybody, to public service, to bring back the draft…
Ah well….maybe it’s just me :/
Food for thought
KillerFord1977
SAINT
Valid point…
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Way back when I enlisted in the military (1965), the draft was still in effect and yet I felt at the time (Viet Nam) that no one should be forced to serve their country, especially fight for it, unless they chose to. Then later on when the draft was ended, for some reason I changed my mind and felt that most young people (certainly does not apply to all) should be required to serve at least some time (probably 2 yrs) in some form of public service ..... military, foreign service, Peace Corp, or other. Reason being is that the older I got the more I felt like we were losing the younger generations.
With the advent of 'Participation Trophies', no losers in any competitive games, everybody wins, no calling names, no dodge ball, etc, etc, etc, it seemed to me that each succeeding generation got further lost. Not necessarily because any of them were bad kids, but simply because they had so little asked or required of them. They had so few life's lessons and had learned so few life skills it simply became a vicious cycle. And today even more than ever I see lost kids running the streets of all major cities.
Our elected leaders have just carried on the habit of asking so little from the young people and expecting even less. Just a day or two ago I heard of (I think) New York is considering giving/paying $1,000 mo to all kids, at some age group and deemed likely to get into trouble just to be good and stay out of trouble. Think about that ..... pay some kids to not be criminals. Obviously that's just a carry over from the 'let them all out of jail' mantra IE: still asking little and expecting less.
Now obviously I've painted with a pretty broad brush, and certainly not pointing fingers at every young person below adult hood. But you all know some of those exactly like I'm describing. These young folks need some kind of structure in their lives that they likely never had. They need to have an opportunity to learn some life skills, life's lessons and civility. Since everything else has failed them and the society they live in, a two year stint in some form of public service would provide that opportunity for them. I also can honestly say I know some really good and responsible young folks, but unfortunately they are in the minority.
It seems to me we have two possibilities of restoring our civil society. 1 - we can do what I've mentioned above and teach them this is a good country and that they are expected to live a good life within this country and society. Does it have problems? Yes, but fewer bad issues and better than any other on the earth. 2 - The other way is to go back to the old days and make crime a crime to be punished. Punishment should be swift, sure, and severe ..... and especially where the crime is against another human being. Coddling a criminal, of any age, is not the way to help them. Teaching them certain responsibilities is.
I know I'll probably be called a dinosaur, backwards, maybe even uncivilized. But folks, the proof is in the pudding, even over just the past year or two. Just think back over the past couple summers and all the anarchy, vandalism, arson, etc, etc. Young folks playing the 'knock out' game and hurting other, typically older folks. We've even seen young people setting up and actually ambushing LEO's for no apparent reason. People, it doesn't get much colder than that.
And as it happened even more punishment was delayed and/or eliminated, more and more State's Attorneys General have actually turned a blind eye to it all, and what has happened? Crime has exploded almost exponentially. No matter one's view on serious punishment, they cannot argue that crime has gone literally insane over especially the past couple years.
My opinion, our civil society cannot survive very many more summers of ever increasing crime like we've seen the past couple. It's not likely that every single 'at risk' young person will turn their lives around due to a couple years of service, but what it will do is to provide them the life skills and lessons to help them survive in world where now they know no bounds. Without those life's skills they have little chance of even recognizing how wrong they are.
With the advent of 'Participation Trophies', no losers in any competitive games, everybody wins, no calling names, no dodge ball, etc, etc, etc, it seemed to me that each succeeding generation got further lost. Not necessarily because any of them were bad kids, but simply because they had so little asked or required of them. They had so few life's lessons and had learned so few life skills it simply became a vicious cycle. And today even more than ever I see lost kids running the streets of all major cities.
Our elected leaders have just carried on the habit of asking so little from the young people and expecting even less. Just a day or two ago I heard of (I think) New York is considering giving/paying $1,000 mo to all kids, at some age group and deemed likely to get into trouble just to be good and stay out of trouble. Think about that ..... pay some kids to not be criminals. Obviously that's just a carry over from the 'let them all out of jail' mantra IE: still asking little and expecting less.
Now obviously I've painted with a pretty broad brush, and certainly not pointing fingers at every young person below adult hood. But you all know some of those exactly like I'm describing. These young folks need some kind of structure in their lives that they likely never had. They need to have an opportunity to learn some life skills, life's lessons and civility. Since everything else has failed them and the society they live in, a two year stint in some form of public service would provide that opportunity for them. I also can honestly say I know some really good and responsible young folks, but unfortunately they are in the minority.
It seems to me we have two possibilities of restoring our civil society. 1 - we can do what I've mentioned above and teach them this is a good country and that they are expected to live a good life within this country and society. Does it have problems? Yes, but fewer bad issues and better than any other on the earth. 2 - The other way is to go back to the old days and make crime a crime to be punished. Punishment should be swift, sure, and severe ..... and especially where the crime is against another human being. Coddling a criminal, of any age, is not the way to help them. Teaching them certain responsibilities is.
I know I'll probably be called a dinosaur, backwards, maybe even uncivilized. But folks, the proof is in the pudding, even over just the past year or two. Just think back over the past couple summers and all the anarchy, vandalism, arson, etc, etc. Young folks playing the 'knock out' game and hurting other, typically older folks. We've even seen young people setting up and actually ambushing LEO's for no apparent reason. People, it doesn't get much colder than that.
And as it happened even more punishment was delayed and/or eliminated, more and more State's Attorneys General have actually turned a blind eye to it all, and what has happened? Crime has exploded almost exponentially. No matter one's view on serious punishment, they cannot argue that crime has gone literally insane over especially the past couple years.
My opinion, our civil society cannot survive very many more summers of ever increasing crime like we've seen the past couple. It's not likely that every single 'at risk' young person will turn their lives around due to a couple years of service, but what it will do is to provide them the life skills and lessons to help them survive in world where now they know no bounds. Without those life's skills they have little chance of even recognizing how wrong they are.
the obsrver
Master Class
I think the biggest problem in this country is the reward system. People who play a game, make millions. People who are good at pretending (acting) make millions. Dishonest people, make millions. Criminals, the more laws you break and the more times you do it, the more you make.
If I knew then what I know now, I would have sold drugs or some other criminal activity.
I have found the courts to be unfair and the reward system that is in place for an honest person who worked his azz off is for squat. I mean look if you are a good person, they call you a sucker. But the end pay off should be so that more people want to be good person.
Tell a kid selling drugs on the corner that if he works for the next 50 years, he can retire and collect a large social security check and the risk reward equation changes.
Instead the avg social security check is $1400 a month.
Same with vets and the service, to many stories of homeless vets, VA horror stories and just plain being forgotten. You need to reward them better.
If I knew then what I know now, I would have sold drugs or some other criminal activity.
I have found the courts to be unfair and the reward system that is in place for an honest person who worked his azz off is for squat. I mean look if you are a good person, they call you a sucker. But the end pay off should be so that more people want to be good person.
Tell a kid selling drugs on the corner that if he works for the next 50 years, he can retire and collect a large social security check and the risk reward equation changes.
Instead the avg social security check is $1400 a month.
Same with vets and the service, to many stories of homeless vets, VA horror stories and just plain being forgotten. You need to reward them better.
"Administrative burden". That's the term we used for the malcontent, trouble-causing, lazy ones that we spent time dealing with through NJP (Non-judicial punishment), ie., XO Investigation/Captain's Mast. Those "administrative burdens" actually volunteered to enlist, so no way in hell I would want to have to deal with those that might be drafted, and not want to there to begin with. Thankgoodness I ret'd back in '92.
Recusant
Hellcat
As a retired teacher I can tell you that many of today's high schools are full of "administrative burdens". When the new zero is 60 hardly anyone fails. Many of today's high school grads have the basic skills of a 4th grader. What my teacher friends went through this past year has been a nightmare and will impact the country for years to come.
TEXASforLIFE
SAINT
When 1 says "It's never too late to start" have not dealt with America's young the last 40 odd years! Too many single parents with 2 or 3 jobs to provide necessities or a 2 parent family that doesn't care what their child/children do and or where they go or who/where bad form comes from! Lets go back 30, 40 or 50+ years where there was prayer, the Pledge of Allegiance in schools (public) and no child left behind ( no thanks to Bush jr (Texas)). 2 out of 3 ain't bad? You decide! It started as a good idea, but has been more of a problem in the school systems. Child care for all ages, all ages more so? It has become "I had them and you take care of them" problem! When my children were in school the first 4 years I noticed that the teaching was a bit off. I asked different teachers about why the curriculum was the way it is? The "no child left behind" was their answer and explained. From the beginning of the school year until the Texas approved testing (aka STAR, TACS and other names over the years) were to teach the children how to pass the test ( not really about learning). They had points taken off for not underlining passages, notes and other idiotic nonsense. Taking back our country starts with our children and those that aren't! Is it possible or too late?
Old_Me
SAINT
maybe not a good thing to train them...but they can be put into the "dirty dozen" regiment, and if they live....??
make them go back again, on another mission, ...until there are no more..????
Bassbob
Emissary
I’m all for my fellow countrymen wanting to serve the public good. I am however completely opposed to compulsory service. Not only is it unconstitutional and unAmerican, but it would not achieve the goal of transforming the young men of this country into law abiding citizens.
The increase in violence, lawlessness and apathy in this country is due to many factors, which I could discuss at length except for the fact that it would violate forum rules.
I can say that if you look at the communities in which these problems run rampant you will find a handful of common denominators that will give you a clue as to what the real, underlying issues are.
The increase in violence, lawlessness and apathy in this country is due to many factors, which I could discuss at length except for the fact that it would violate forum rules.
I can say that if you look at the communities in which these problems run rampant you will find a handful of common denominators that will give you a clue as to what the real, underlying issues are.
Universal military service can be accomplished without resorting to the draft (which is a lottery). Combat postings can continue to be voluntary absent a major conflict. That voluntary aspect is critical when casualties start coming in.
There are two major stumbling points, however: First, the senior military leadership views the training and feeding of potentally useless troops as an unneeded drain on funds. Second, military life tends to inculcate conservative values, and that is ghastly to the growing segment of our "give me a free ride" population.
The first is easily ansewered: As the fraction of the population that gains a real understanding of civics and defense increases, so does the pressure mount to properly fund defense and law enforcement.
Ansering the second all too quickly takes us into a political discussion.
There are two major stumbling points, however: First, the senior military leadership views the training and feeding of potentally useless troops as an unneeded drain on funds. Second, military life tends to inculcate conservative values, and that is ghastly to the growing segment of our "give me a free ride" population.
The first is easily ansewered: As the fraction of the population that gains a real understanding of civics and defense increases, so does the pressure mount to properly fund defense and law enforcement.
Ansering the second all too quickly takes us into a political discussion.
TEXASforLIFE
SAINT
Military is not always an answer, but some sort of civic service could bring those who dislike certain types of service on the other side of the fence to see what it's like to deal with the people like themselves! Teacher in large cities will have the toughest/hardest group to teach due from "I don't want too be here" or "I don't need to learn" attitude. Teaching should be fun for the teacher and students! When you get a teacher there for just a paycheck it doesn't help the students. I've had a few teachers that must have had a bad/mean teacher when they were young? There were complaints about them and yet still taught. Their attitude was terrible maybe because they had a not so nice teacher and become 1 just to be like them. With the lack of respect in schools I don't see them getting defunded.
the obsrver
Master Class
The military is to political. We do not have wars. We have skirmishes. We have political jockying. A deterrent.
The last war we had was WW2, War is an absolute. It is when you say "I may die, but I am taking as many of them with me as I can". If that is not the mentality, is it really a war? If you are sitting in your home and someone kicks in the door and has a gun, do you aim for a leg shot?
When people say we have not won a war since WW2, I laugh because that was the last time we had a real war.
As for kids. it is real simple, Texas for life said "the last 40 years". Close it was when WW2 and they put women in the workforce and left them there. You instantly flooded the job market with labor. It did not take long and they adjusted everything so both parents had to work to make ends meet. Meanwhile they sold women on this idea their rights were being violated if they could not slave away in a factory. Best trick the devil ever pulled was.....
But do you see wealthy peoples wives and women working? Oh they can if they want to, or they "volunteer".
Having no parents around does not help.
Then we went to everyone gets a trophy. From there it is tough to want to go to work building a road or swinging a hammer for $12 an hour, while your buddy sells a little crack on the corner and he is rolling in money. He gets caught and is out in 3 months. Then you get to see the people who did it the right way and worked all their lives struggle to make rent and choose between good groceries or a doctors visit. You see homeless vets, Ones who have pains many can not imagine.
SO again, if I knew then what I know now, How can you look at these kids and not think they are just smart enough to see that serving your country gets you nowhere. That working for 40 years, gets you nowhere.
The last war we had was WW2, War is an absolute. It is when you say "I may die, but I am taking as many of them with me as I can". If that is not the mentality, is it really a war? If you are sitting in your home and someone kicks in the door and has a gun, do you aim for a leg shot?
When people say we have not won a war since WW2, I laugh because that was the last time we had a real war.
As for kids. it is real simple, Texas for life said "the last 40 years". Close it was when WW2 and they put women in the workforce and left them there. You instantly flooded the job market with labor. It did not take long and they adjusted everything so both parents had to work to make ends meet. Meanwhile they sold women on this idea their rights were being violated if they could not slave away in a factory. Best trick the devil ever pulled was.....
But do you see wealthy peoples wives and women working? Oh they can if they want to, or they "volunteer".
Having no parents around does not help.
Then we went to everyone gets a trophy. From there it is tough to want to go to work building a road or swinging a hammer for $12 an hour, while your buddy sells a little crack on the corner and he is rolling in money. He gets caught and is out in 3 months. Then you get to see the people who did it the right way and worked all their lives struggle to make rent and choose between good groceries or a doctors visit. You see homeless vets, Ones who have pains many can not imagine.
SO again, if I knew then what I know now, How can you look at these kids and not think they are just smart enough to see that serving your country gets you nowhere. That working for 40 years, gets you nowhere.
Funwithfuel
Custom
Man, that's an ugly way to look at things. It's one thing to joke about, another to fully believe it. I have a lot of misplaced trust in society, most of it undeserved. Every now and again, some sliver of light shines through, that's worth getting up for. If i looked at things the way you described above, I wouldn't leave the house. I have to believe there's more out there.
Bassbob
Emissary
Yeah, but I think he's right.