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Romeo zero on a Hellcat

What???? You don't have three hands? LOL! LOL! Just jerking your chain a little. (y)

When you said this .... " The issue I'm describing, with the RomeoZero ...is that I cannot see the entire front iron sight ...through the lens of the RomeoZero .... that the body of the RMR blocks my view of the front sight ...that when I try to sight in or aim using the iron sights looking through the RMR lens ... I cannot drop the ball of the front sight fully into the bucket of the rear sight ...before I start losing sight of the front sight." is exactly the definition of NO 100% co-witness.

I guess in the simplest of terms, a 100% co-witness is when you can see the iron sight alignment and picture exactly as intended while at the same time seeing the red dot ..... usually sitting right on top of the front sight as if the dot itself were a target you were holding at the 6:00 position. Depending on the caliber, bbl , cartridge, etc, of the firearm you're mounting the sight to, a dot sitting on top of the front sight (6:00 hold) when viewing a complete sight alignment and picture will basically give you a 'point blank' hold with just the red dot out to distances not typically a concern to CCW firearms users.

As I understand the term, if you cannot see both the front and rear iron sight as they were intended/designed while also seeing the red dot, you do not have 100% co-witnessing. Now, it's not imperative that you must see the irons while using the red dot, only that you should have that capacity if wanted/needed.

I can agree there is some occasional usefulness to the 'lower 1/3' witnessing, but far more versatile on long guns than on handguns due primarily to the much shorter eye relief on the long guns. It's much easier and more effective with less "dropping of your line of sight" with the short eye relief on the long gun.

Hope I've led you correctly and offered clear advice. And best of luck.

Edit: I think 'Lock n Load' just mentioned that third sight I couldn't remember. Be sure to see his post just above mine.
 
And so before anyone admonishes me for not putting blue loctite on the hex-head screws ... I took the sight back off.

Still comtemplating whether to keep it, or try to sell it and buy something else ... something that will allow me to fully co-witness with the iron sights ...

Also considering an RMR that is made of Aluminum or some other metal ...versus platic/polymer ...and/or an RMR with a glass lens versus polymer etc ...

But I'm having a very hard time finding an RMR that fits all 3 ... Aluminum, glass lens, and 100% co-witness .... AND does not auto-adjust brightness ... AND had a "shake and wake" versus constant on feature ...

I like the maual brightness settings with the RZ, but not so much the all polymer case and lens (and mostly that I can't co-witness...), ... liked the Sentinel as it was aluminum body and glass lens ... but hear you can't fully co-witness ...but like the shake and wake ...

With the Sheild ...don't like auto-adjust ... but you can co-witness ... but plastic ... until just recently they have new "glass lens" editions .... but to get aluminum body you have to go wtih RMSc ...and add the glass lens option and it costs $483.

RMSc with plastic lens is $400, and SMSc only comes with plastic body ... with plastic lens at about $299 and with glass lens about $383.

Jpoint is plastic body and lens, but can co-witness ....

So nothing checks all the boxes except the RMRc glass lens version ... but at $483 versus $199 I paid for the RZ and versus the $549 I paid for the Hellcat itself ....
 
jumpinjoe said:
What???? You don't have three hands? LOL! LOL! Just jerking your chain a little. (y)

I guess in the simplest of terms, a 100% co-witness is when you can see the iron sight alignment and picture exactly as intended while at the same time seeing the red dot ..... usually sitting right on top of the front sight as if the dot itself were a target you were holding at the 6:00 position. Depending on the caliber, bbl , cartridge, etc, of the firearm you're mounting the sight to, a dot sitting on top of the front sight (6:00 hold) when viewing a complete sight alignment and picture will basically give you a 'point blank' hold with just the red dot out to distances not typically a concern to CCW firearms users.

As I understand the term, if you cannot see both the front and rear iron sight as they were intended/designed while also seeing the red dot, you do not have 100% co-witnessing. Now, it's not imperative that you must see the irons while using the red dot, only that you should have that capacity if wanted/needed.

I can agree there is some occasional usefulness to the 'lower 1/3' witnessing, but far more versatile on long guns than on handguns due primarily to the much shorter eye relief on the long guns. It's much easier and more effective with less "dropping of your line of sight" with the short eye relief on the long gun.

Hope I've led you correctly and offered clear advice. And best of luck.
Click to expand...

Yes, ... that is what I was hoping to have with the RZ ... a "100% co-witness" ... meaning able to see the entire front sight.
And I agree that the iron sights should rest in the lower 1/3 of the lens ... and while in a perfect world the red dot should align right on top of the front iron sight ... that this is not a requirement....and some say better to have the red dot in the center of the lens ...

Nor is it a requirement to see 100% of the front sight as the main goal of the RMR optic is to use the red dot ....but in the rare 1% scenario where the red dot optic may fail ... would be nice to see 100% of the front iron sight ...
 
Redleg99 said:
" ......................."
But I'm having a very hard time finding an RMR that fits all 3 ... Aluminum, glass lens, and 100% co-witness .... AND does not auto-adjust brightness ... AND had a "shake and wake" versus constant on feature ...
" ....................."
So nothing checks all the boxes except the RMRc glass lens version ... but at $483 versus $199 I paid for the RZ and versus the $549 I paid for the Hellcat itself ....
Click to expand...
LOL! Yor first statement I quoted above sounds much like trying to find the perfect woman. They just don't exist!!!! There are some really good ones out there, and some even far better than others ..... but you just have to compromise when finding the right one for you. BTW, it's very much the same for the ladies out there. Yeh, they have to often do a little compromising too, probably much more than the guys do, huh. Y'all know I wouldn't be a chauvinist now don't you.

Now regarding your second statement I've quoted ..... see my reply to your first! ;):)

Seriously, try to be a little more realistic and you won't be sorry. I don't know all your reasons for the various requirements, but I can tell you that with either of the sights that actually fit and 100% co-witness with the irons on the Hellcat, even with each one leaving something to be desired, you won't regret either of them.
 
Redleg99, something else you may have not realized and is making your quest all the harder is that once the red dot is adjusted to the same point of impact as your iron sights, you don't have to be able to see any part of the irons to score a hit. That's the one biggest advantage of the red dot sight. As long as the dot is on target, it makes no difference where the irons are or even whether you can see any part of them. So keeping that in mind, maybe reconsider just how important some of your requirements/preferences are.
 
As an aside Redleg99, I paid IIRC $569 for my Hellcat OSP almost exactly one year ago. I looked and looked for the perfect red dot but I finally accepted it didn't exist at that time. Remember the Hellcat hadn't been out very long at that time and there wasn't much of any aftermarket stuff for it.

And much like you I didn't really want to spend (actually couldn't afford to at the time) the $400-$499 for the RMSc which came closest to my preference, so I opted for the SMSc at about $299 (maybe something less) at the time as I remember. Well, I saved myself a couple hundred bucks, and from the moment I mounted the SMSc, I've not regretted it even for a second.

After a little soul searching and recognizing I was putting myself in a no-win situation with my requirements, I bought the less expensive sight all along considering I could/would move up to something a little better at some later time. Well, It's been nearly a year now and I have absolutely no need nor desire to move to anything else. The SMSc sight does everything I've asked of it and more. I'm pretty sure it'll do the same for you. (y) (y)
 
Redleg99, something else that just caught my eye is when you said this .... "
RMSc with plastic lens is $400, and SMSc only comes with plastic body ... with plastic lens at about $299 and with glass lens about $383.

Jpoint is plastic body and lens, but can co-witness ...."

All emphasis (boldings) above are mine ....... but do you not see a tiny bit of irony in that the gun you're holding in your hand (figuratively) is also made of plastic? Nothing at all wrong or bad with today's modern, miracle materials. Give it another thought or two. (y) (y) (y) Any material, no matter how tough or proven is fallible at some point. Use them as designed and intended and you'll be fine.
 
Redleg99 said:
And so before anyone admonishes me for not putting blue loctite on the hex-head screws ... I took the sight back off.

Still comtemplating whether to keep it, or try to sell it and buy something else ... something that will allow me to fully co-witness with the iron sights ...

Also considering an RMR that is made of Aluminum or some other metal ...versus platic/polymer ...and/or an RMR with a glass lens versus polymer etc ...

But I'm having a very hard time finding an RMR that fits all 3 ... Aluminum, glass lens, and 100% co-witness .... AND does not auto-adjust brightness ... AND had a "shake and wake" versus constant on feature ...

I like the maual brightness settings with the RZ, but not so much the all polymer case and lens (and mostly that I can't co-witness...), ... liked the Sentinel as it was aluminum body and glass lens ... but hear you can't fully co-witness ...but like the shake and wake ...

With the Sheild ...don't like auto-adjust ... but you can co-witness ... but plastic ... until just recently they have new "glass lens" editions .... but to get aluminum body you have to go wtih RMSc ...and add the glass lens option and it costs $483.

RMSc with plastic lens is $400, and SMSc only comes with plastic body ... with plastic lens at about $299 and with glass lens about $383.

Jpoint is plastic body and lens, but can co-witness ....

So nothing checks all the boxes except the RMRc glass lens version ... but at $483 versus $199 I paid for the RZ and versus the $549 I paid for the Hellcat itself ....
Click to expand...
Redleg99- The polymer lens on the Shield RMSc works just fine for me. It is not as easy to crack as the glass and it's got a hard coating over the polymer on the lens. I invested in a LensPen Law Enforcement Kit which works on polymer or glass. It contains 2 LensPens of different sizes, cleaning cloth, anti-fog cloth, instructions, and a zippered case that easily fits in my range bag and has belt loop for carrying. The company makes their products for very expensive photographic lenses and cleans my RMSc to perfection in seconds. Check online to find best price. They're on sale now for $24.95. Here's a link:

lenspen.com

LensPen® Outdoor Pro Kit for Law Enforcement

Everything you need – Kit includes: 1 x Original LensPen® for Law Enforcement 1 x LensPen® MiniPro for Law Enforcement 1 x MicroKlear Microfiber Cloth 1 x FogKlear Antifog Cloth All contained in a convenient nylon carrying bag with belt loop To reduce waste and offer better shipping options this...
lenspen.com lenspen.com

Edit to add link.
 
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Great stuff all around everyone. Why I like this board. No judging insight take what you want/need and historical docs and pics for others to educate.

If it makes people feel better I have the RZ on a P365xl. It does not 100 percent co witness per the recent comments. You would think those two designers would have collaborated. That’s too easy though...

If You do decide to keep the RZ there is an aluminum shroud Sig provides kind of like the swamp fox. I don’t have one (yet), but I suspect it only raises the RZ further obstructing the iron sights.
Let us know what direction you end up going!
 
Lchtus said:
Great stuff all around everyone. Why I like this board. No judging insight take what you want/need and historical docs and pics for others to educate.

If it makes people feel better I have the RZ on a P365xl. It does not 100 percent co witness per the recent comments. You would think those two designers would have collaborated. That’s too easy though...

If You do decide to keep the RZ there is an aluminum shroud Sig provides kind of like the swamp fox. I don’t have one (yet), but I suspect it only raises the RZ further obstructing the iron sights.
Let us know what direction you end up going!
Click to expand...
If I'm not mistaken, if you put a RDS on a P365XL, doesn't the rear sight have to be removed? Kind of hard to cowitness with no rear sight...
 
uspatriot1960 said:
If I'm not mistaken, if you put a RDS on a P365XL, doesn't the rear sight have to be removed? Kind of hard to cowitness with no rear sight...
Click to expand...

Yep plate that comes off has the rear sights. RZ you end up with the little sight notches built into the red dot. Essentially only see 1/2 maybe 60 % of front dot. Would have thought designs out of the same company would be more coherent.

Updated w some pics:
 

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jumpinjoe said:
Redleg99, something else you may have not realized and is making your quest all the harder is that once the red dot is adjusted to the same point of impact as your iron sights, you don't have to be able to see any part of the irons to score a hit. That's the one biggest advantage of the red dot sight. As long as the dot is on target, it makes no difference where the irons are or even whether you can see any part of them. So keeping that in mind, maybe reconsider just how important some of your requirements/preferences are.
Click to expand...

Yes,

I guess I was just thinking, that if the optic ever did fail just ad I needed to use my gun to defend myself...wouk
jumpinjoe said:
Redleg99, something else you may have not realized and is making your quest all the harder is that once the red dot is adjusted to the same point of impact as your iron sights, you don't have to be able to see any part of the irons to score a hit. That's the one biggest advantage of the red dot sight. As long as the dot is on target, it makes no difference where the irons are or even whether you can see any part of them. So keeping that in mind, maybe reconsider just how important some of your requirements/preferences are.
Click to expand...

That's true, guess I was just thinking about that possible rare scenario that at the exact moment I may have to use my weapon to defend myself the optic may fail, and was thinking it would be nice to see all of the front sight through the RMR lens so I could co-witness and use the iron sights as if there was no optic mounted at all.
 
jumpinjoe said:
Redleg99, something else that just caught my eye is when you said this .... "
RMSc with plastic lens is $400, and SMSc only comes with plastic body ... with plastic lens at about $299 and with glass lens about $383.

Jpoint is plastic body and lens, but can co-witness ...."

All emphasis (boldings) above are mine ....... but do you not see a tiny bit of irony in that the gun you're holding in your hand (figuratively) is also made of plastic? Nothing at all wrong or bad with today's modern, miracle materials. Give it another thought or two. (y) (y) (y) Any material, no matter how tough or proven is fallible at some point. Use them as designed and intended and you'll be fine.
Click to expand...

Good points.

I guess I get swayed a little too much in what I read in some posts by others and blogs, where other folks talk about the flimsy or cheap plasticky feel of these sights...etc...and how some field test them and saw they can rack their slide with a particular RMR because of the tough aluminum body, or can survive a 5 ft drop etc...

Others have said the plastic or polymer lenses scratch too easily...that after just a few months carrying the in their holster they are scratched...etc...

So, you got me to thinking...what would be essential qualities...

I don't plan on using the optic to rack the slide, and if I ever find myself in a situation where that was my only choice...I probably have bigger issues at hand than whether the optic is polymer or aluminum.

The plastic lens vs glass lens...still need to think about that one....

Manual brightness vs auto adjusting brightness....still have to scratch my head on that... Some people post they hate having the dot always changing based on light conditions ...I think I read something about someone standing in the shade and aiming downrange where the sun was shining and the dot did some funny adjustment or something like that....

...but again, if I had to get 1 shot off quickly and accurately to save my life...could I deal with the res dot being a little too dim or too bright??? Probably...maybe...?

I'm thinking the mist critical issue would be, if the optic "did" fa would I still be able to accurately sight in on the iron sights to get off an accurate shot...so I'm thinking being able to fully or 100% being able to co-witness would be my top priority.

Thinking it all through like this, I believe rthe RMSc, SMSc, or JPoint is the better option for me.

Next might be glass lens over plastic, and lowest requirement an aluminum body and auto or manual brightness.

I'm leaning more toward selling the RZ and ordering either the original SMSc or the new SMSc with the glass lens.
 
Lock n' Load said:
Redleg99- The polymer lens on the Shield RMSc works just fine for me. It is not as easy to crack as the glass and it's got a hard coating over the polymer on the lens. I invested in a LensPen Law Enforcement Kit which works on polymer or glass. It contains 2 LensPens of different sizes, cleaning cloth, anti-fog cloth, instructions, and a zippered case that easily fits in my range bag and has belt loop for carrying. The company makes their products for very expensive photographic lenses and cleans my RMSc to perfection in seconds. Check online to find best price. They're on sale now for $24.95. Here's a link:

lenspen.com

LensPen® Outdoor Pro Kit for Law Enforcement

Everything you need – Kit includes: 1 x Original LensPen® for Law Enforcement 1 x LensPen® MiniPro for Law Enforcement 1 x MicroKlear Microfiber Cloth 1 x FogKlear Antifog Cloth All contained in a convenient nylon carrying bag with belt loop To reduce waste and offer better shipping options this...
lenspen.com lenspen.com

Edit to add link.
Click to expand...

Oh cool!

Well then, maybe I can save about $90 and buy either the SMSc or RMSc with the plastic lens and not worry about upgrading to the glass lens version.
 
ShaunR said:
Is there anyone here that has mounted a Romeo zero on a Hellcat yet? The two sets of screws Sig sent are both a little long. Just wondering if I’m doing something wrong.
thanks,
Shaun
Click to expand...
I can confirm that Springfield Armory does not sell the screws for this mount and Sig Sauer does not wan to comment on the issue with the screws included with the Romeo. But...I did contact Ace hardware and they actually sell the M4x10 with 0.70 pitch needed for this mount. Will comment once I have used to mount the Romeo.
 
Grump said:
I’m new to pistol optics, have a venom on a S&W shield and really like that I can still shoot with tired eyes. New hellcat will be equipped as well, as soon as I get a handle on what to use. Does Holosun show promise as a reliable optic for the hellcat.
Click to expand...
Who milled the slide on your Shield ?
 
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