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Should I carry a spare magazine

Spare mag(s)… DEFINITELY.

Granted FBI stats show most gun fights are typically less than 5 rds, one never knows what may come… or HOW MANY.

That said, I always recommend carrying an extra mag, and not just any old mag, but an extended mag at that, and here’s why.

I’m pretty sure most concealed carriers don’t have an extended mag inserted in the firearm while carrying as this presents a printing problem. But there’s NO-THING that says you can’t carry an extended mag or two as spares. Think about it… should you have to draw your weapon (God forbid) use it, and have to conduct a reload, why not give yourself every advantage possible and reload a 10 rd mag versus an 7 or 8 rd mag?

If you’ve drawn your weapon and emptied it the gig is up and at this point EVERYONE knows you’re carrying, so might as well load up a 10 rd mag. When carried properly .45 acp extended magazines don’t print anymore than standard 7 or 8 rd magazines. Hence I always opt for that extended mag as a spare, sometimes 2 depending on where I’m going.

And I throw the 8 rd spare mag in the truck for good measure.

One of the main knocks on the 1911 is the lack of ammunition with only 7-9 rds. And that’s fine because realistically I don’t feel as though I’m gonna need 16-18 rds to dispatch a would be bad guy. And if you want my honest opinion, anyone who does needs to shoot more, A LOT MORE with emphasis on shot placement.

That said, if I’m carrying 9 rds in the gun (8+1), and have two 10 rd spare mags, that’s a total of 29 rds. I mean unless we’re talking a zombie apocalypse or some other cataclysmic event, I sure as hell don’t anticipate needing 29 rds to dispatch a bad guy or two, or even three. Reload drills are important so practice them, a lot.

We all know shot placement is key. Hit a would be knucklehead anywhere in a vital region w/a 230 gr hollow point there’s a pretty good chance they’re gonna stop what they’re doing and lay down. Hit them twice and it’s game over.

Just sayin…
 
JDMartin said:
Spare mag(s)… DEFINITELY.

Granted FBI stats show most gun fights are typically less than 5 rds, one never knows what may come… or HOW MANY.

That said, I always recommend carrying an extra mag, and not just any old mag, but an extended mag at that, and here’s why.

I’m pretty sure most concealed carriers don’t have an extended mag inserted in the firearm while carrying as this presents a printing problem. But there’s NO-THING that says you can’t carry an extended mag or two as spares. Think about it… should you have to draw your weapon (God forbid) use it, and have to conduct a reload, why not give yourself every advantage possible and reload a 10 rd mag versus an 7 or 8 rd mag?

If you’ve drawn your weapon and emptied it the gig is up and at this point EVERYONE knows you’re carrying, so might as well load up a 10 rd mag. When carried properly .45 acp extended magazines don’t print anymore than standard 7 or 8 rd magazines. Hence I always opt for that extended mag as a spare, sometimes 2 depending on where I’m going.

And I throw the 8 rd spare mag in the truck for good measure.

One of the main knocks on the 1911 is the lack of ammunition with only 7-9 rds. And that’s fine because realistically I don’t feel as though I’m gonna need 16-18 rds to dispatch a would be bad guy. And if you want my honest opinion, anyone who does needs to shoot more, A LOT MORE with emphasis on shot placement.

That said, if I’m carrying 9 rds in the gun (8+1), and have two 10 rd spare mags, that’s a total of 29 rds. I mean unless we’re talking a zombie apocalypse or some other cataclysmic event, I sure as hell don’t anticipate needing 29 rds to dispatch a bad guy or two, or even three. Reload drills are important so practice them, a lot.

We all know shot placement is key. Hit a would be knucklehead anywhere in a vital region w/a 230 gr hollow point there’s a pretty good chance they’re gonna stop what they’re doing and lay down. Hit them twice and it’s game over.

Just sayin…
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Just sayin’ that ain’t necessarily so.

If you want to look at an outlier (and also one involving law enforcement, not a carrier) event where it took 14 rounds of .45–many placed in vitals, including head shots (plural), look at the Gramins shooting:



That being said—that’s an outlier, waaay over on the right hand side of the bell curve.
 
We have trained hundreds of armed professionals. Malfunction clearance is an essential part of the training. A stage 1 clearance is simply tap the base of the magazine to insure it is seated, rack the slide to clear the chamber and seat another fresh round, and get back in the fight. A stage 2 malfunction involves a double feed. Double feeds often occur when the inexperienced, or stressed shooter limp wrists the gun, or it could be a bad magazine. We see it in almost every class and it is usually shooter induced. If a stage 1 clearance does not work, you go to stage 2. That involves either locking the slide to the rear and removing the magazine, or simply ripping the magazine out and reloading with a new fresh magazine. In other words, start over. If you get a double feed and do not have a spare magazine to replace the one you had trouble with, well, good luck.
 
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HansGruber said:
Just sayin’ that ain’t necessarily so.

If you want to look at an outlier (and also one involving law enforcement, not a carrier) event where it took 14 rounds of .45–many placed in vitals, including head shots (plural), look at the Gramins shooting:



That being said—that’s an outlier, waaay over on the right hand side of the bell curve.
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Most gunfights are over in 3 seconds or less, 3 shots or less, at 3 yards or less. But yes there are number of cases where the bad guy was dead but just didn't know it yet. I was present within 10 feet on two occasions where a suspect took a full load of 00 buck in the 10 ring and still had a couple seconds of fight left in them before they hit the pavement. Case studies are replete with examples of suspects, and soldiers, who kept fighting even though mortally wounded. You just do not know how the opponent will react to being shot. The trick is, hit the CNS or alternatively, let as much blood out as quickly as possible, and preferably both, to neutralize the target
 
The starting point is multiple hits to the upper CBM. If that fails, hopefully you bought an extra second to place one in the dome.
 
The bottom line as I see it is, yes, odds are you will never need you firearm, and if you do odds are you will not need spare ammunition. But, the odds are against winning the lottery, and yet someone always does. It's a cheap, easy to carry insurance policy...
 
HayesGreener said:
Most gunfights are over in 3 seconds or less, 3 shots or less, at 3 yards or less. But yes there are number of cases where the bad guy was dead but just didn't know it yet. I was present within 10 feet on two occasions where a suspect took a full load of 00 buck in the 10 ring and still had a couple seconds of fight left in them before they hit the pavement. Case studies are replete with examples of suspects, and soldiers, who kept fighting even though mortally wounded. You just do not know how the opponent will react to being shot. The trick is, hit the CNS or alternatively, let as much blood out as quickly as possible, and preferably both, to neutralize the target
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Oh, I utterly agree; personally, I feel more than adequately armed with a 5-shot J-frame; sure, I’ll have a speed strip, but I am under no illusions about actually needing the ammo, or if it is needed, how fast I’ll get it back into play. Sure, I practice reloads, even under “stress” (bet with the shooting buddies that the slowest has to buy lunch for all…and not MickeyD’s…); but the fact is…it’s almost certainly not going to be needed.

I was just pointing out that that’s not always the case, though. Something I acknowledge, but in my personal risk assessment, have decided it’s not worth worrying about.
 
Funwithfuel said:
While most confrontstions will require no more than 3 shots, what if you find yourself in a riot or multiple bad guys?
I would think pocket lint or change or anything else is gonna compromise your weapon just as easily as your spare mag. The bent feed lip isn't really a valid argument either. Quality mags both factory and aftermarket are more resilient than you give them credit for.
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Drop the first 3 with head shots and the rest probably wont advance…

How snipers keep large forces tied up for awhile..

Good thing I’m not Prez. Low yield tactical nukes and head shots for the enemies
 
KillerFord1977 said:
Drop the first 3 with head shots and the rest probably wont advance…

How snipers keep large forces tied up for awhile..

Good thing I’m not Prez. Low yield tactical nukes and head shots for the enemies
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Head shots are more likely to inflict debilitating damage for sure. It's also a smaller target that is harder to hit when in motion. Most people aren't snipers. Even cops. When you have 3 3/10ths of a second to respond your best bet is high center mass
 
Bassbob said:
Head shots are more likely to inflict debilitating damage for sure. It's also a smaller target that is harder to hit when in motion. Most people aren't snipers. Even cops. When you have 3 3/10ths of a second to respond your best bet is high center mass
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Yeah, but head shots instill fear and big squishy mess… Dawn Of The Dead and Zombie movies prove head shots are more fun 😁

( you know my OP was sarcasm, right 😉)
 
Bassbob said:
It's also a smaller target that is harder to hit when in motion.
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^ This is no joke, and I thank @Bassbob for highlighting it for us. (y)

Jack Wilson's well-placed head-shot should not be overlooked as excellent marksmanship under dire pressure: https://www.fox4news.com/news/grand-jury-clears-man-who-killed-white-settlement-church-shooter

I wrote the following on another Forum soon after the White Settlement church shooting, and I'll copy-paste it, below.

--------

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2554667151446622

^ This video from FPF Training [ ETA that this video no longer seems to be available:( ; but it demos a FPF Training student shooting at a walking-pace horizontal moving target, while walking, with the stipulation that the shot is to be a head shot in the eyebox] shows just how hard a moving head shot -where both the shooter and the target are moving- is. And to state the obvious, this is on a flat range, in a training context where the only pressure is that shot timer, and the target is moving at a predictable, constant rate.

What many folks who only punch static targets don't understand is that just because the target is closer to you doesn't make it an easier shot. On moving targets, it's perversely just the opposite. The late Louis Awerbuck reminded us that the physical circumstances of the fight can also be used to explain why even trained shooters miss at even close range: that the law of inverse proportions and simple angular geometry can demonstrate how a dynamic, moving target can well be easier to hit at 20 yards than it is to hit at 2, and that furthermore, at closer range, that angular deviation opens up more of the backdrop, making Cooper's "Rule 4" all that much more important when shooting in the "real world." [ Having a hard time grasping these concepts? I did, too, but a very good way to visualize the concepts being discussed here is to review what we know about angles and shooting from cover, and here's an excellent instructional by our mbquimby on XDTalk - My Training Videos Spoofs Page 2 XDTalk Forums ]

I've lamented that I had not been able to get out to Awerbuck prior to his passing, and incidents like this revisits my disappointment. For those of you who are unfamiliar, the "Mirage Target System" that Awerbuck pioneered ranks right up there with the Rogers Reactive, and is unique in simulating a real-world, dynamic, encounter, complete with backdrop and foreground concerns. We understand that a dynamic, real-world confrontation in which both parties are moving will make marksmanship considerably harder: that there is a very physical/mathematical reason why even trained individuals miss at close range, and, as noted above, why backdrop issues take on critical concern (rewind only a few days from this incident at White Settlement to the UPS-truck hijacking/shootout in FL).

index.php

^ Image stolen from the Interwebs: it's one of the few remaining that I can find of that amazing training system.

Other applicable lessons?

We are reminded by Awerbuck that the critical CNS shot "eye box" zone is only valid when the target is directly facing us in much the same manner that we view a flat-range 2-dimensional paper target.

Why? Look at the anatomy, look at what we are actually shooting: we're not shooting "the brain" as a whole - that critical "eyebox" delineates an area not only of material weakness in the bony structure that is our skull, but also has further implications in terms of the areas of the brain which govern the vital functions that keeps us, as humans, alive. To-wit, Representative Gabrielle Giffords was "shot in the brain."

Marksmanship is king, and if nothing else, Mr. Wilson's amazing performance reminds us of this truth.

It's all too easy to say that "combat effective" shooting is "more than sufficient for the real world."

But that flat-range 2-dimensional target we're shooting at is far from "the real world," and getting "combat effective" hits on it does not translate to what we know of either anatomy or physics.

No-one ever wished they shot slower or were less accurate.

Yes, shooting more rounds, faster, inherently biases the BSA template and compromises accuracy.

That is true for everybody from the completely-fresh-to-shooting novice all the way to the most badass of ninja-killers and even top-tier competition shooters.

But each and every one of those individuals - myself included - could shoot faster and more accurately if only we practiced to do so: if we only realized that with proper instruction and diligent practice, we can go faster, we can be more accurate.
 
Right again. Other than SWAT, and particularly snipers, we did not train our officers to make head shots other than at CQB distances. Everybody gets to try it and many are shocked that they cannot make the head shot in compressed time. LE training places emphasis on center mass, for good reason. When you add stress, multiple persons, uncertainty, movement, noise, tunnel vision, and auditory exclusion to the mix it is no wonder that so many of the shots fired are misses. I have practiced CQB and failure drills on the range for more than 40 years-it is how I end nearly all my training sessions, and I still get the occasional miss when I shorten the allowed time on the timer to below 2 seconds. We shoot center mass because it is the biggest target and there is a lot of important stuff in there. If you can make the head shot, good on you. But if you have not practiced it under time and are not confident in your ability to get a solid hit, don't try it.
 
TSiWRX said:
^ @Jimbo, please let us know what you think of that item.

My hesitancy for that item is because it seems to me (as I have not used it, personally) that you'd have the extra step of having to strip that cover off the mag, before you can accomplish the reload.

As someone who's seen classmates try to shove a cell-phone into their gun's magwell -repeatedly at that- simply because they had their cell phone staged too close to where they carry their spare mag, I'm a full believer to the "simplicity under stress" philosophy. 😅 I've also seen students do the same when their SnagMag didn't release during the withdrawal from the pocket.
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I just received my Ammo Armor magazine protector, and I like it a lot.
* My spare magazine can move around all it wants in my pocket; it is well protected by the Ammo Armor sleeve.
* I have a pinky extension on my magazine, so I can orient the magazine correctly by feel as I am pulling it out of my pocket.
* My natural tendency is to put the sleeve under my arm while the magazine is still in it, then hold the sleeve in place with my arm while I am pulling the magazine out of the sleeve. This method works well for me.
* My magazine fits snugly and perfectly in the Ammo Armor sleeve. It comes out with a little bit of effort, but it doesn't require a lot of effort. In other words, it won't come out till I pull it out; and it will come out when I pull it out.

This is a very well designed product. It will keep my spare magazine protected and safe, and accessible if needed. Because of this excellent product, I will now have 15 rounds on me at all times.

If you prefer pocket carry over IWB for your magazine, then this product is for you.
 

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Jimbo said:
I just received my Ammo Armor magazine protector, and I like it a lot.
* My spare magazine can move around all it wants in my pocket; it is well protected by the Ammo Armor sleeve.
* I have a pinky extension on my magazine, so I can orient the magazine correctly by feel as I am pulling it out of my pocket.
* My natural tendency is to put the sleeve under my arm while the magazine is still in it, then hold the sleeve in place with my arm while I am pulling the magazine out of the sleeve. This method works well for me.
* My magazine fits snugly and perfectly in the Ammo Armor sleeve. It comes out with a little bit of effort, but it doesn't require a lot of effort. In other words, it won't come out till I pull it out; and it will come out when I pull it out.

This is a very well designed product. It will keep my spare magazine protected and safe, and accessible if needed. Because of this excellent product, I will now have 15 rounds on me at all times.

If you prefer pocket carry over IWB for your magazine, then this product is for you.
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Still gonna pass.
 
On a side note, it seems that Ammo Armor is the same company as Sneaky Pete. I ordered this product from Ammo Armor's website, but it was shipped by Sneaky Pete. The two websites look very much alike. In fact, Sneaky Pete sells Ammo Armor products on their website.

I had previously purchased a holster from Sneaky Pete, so I was surprised when I received a package from them containing the Ammo Armor sleeve.
 
HayesGreener said:
Right again. Other than SWAT, and particularly snipers, we did not train our officers to make head shots other than at CQB distances. Everybody gets to try it and many are shocked that they cannot make the head shot in compressed time. LE training places emphasis on center mass, for good reason. When you add stress, multiple persons, uncertainty, movement, noise, tunnel vision, and auditory exclusion to the mix it is no wonder that so many of the shots fired are misses. I have practiced CQB and failure drills on the range for more than 40 years-it is how I end nearly all my training sessions, and I still get the occasional miss when I shorten the allowed time on the timer to below 2 seconds. We shoot center mass because it is the biggest target and there is a lot of important stuff in there. If you can make the head shot, good on you. But if you have not practiced it under time and are not confident in your ability to get a solid hit, don't try it.
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Any time I begin to think that I'm good and need deflating just step up to the computerized pop ups; find 'em, identify the friendlies from the foe, whether to take the shot or not before the target retracts and this is not even head shots but center mass. I've witnessed some pretty good fellas get so far behind they give up, holster up and move on.
 
An update on Ammo Armor:

* In my opinion, Ammo Armor is the perfect option if you want to pocket carry a spare magazine for the Ruger EC9S / LC9S. However, it is not good for the Sig P238 6 round magazine . The problem with the Sig magazine is that the Ammo Armor sleeve holds the magazine very snugly, and there is literally nothing for you to grab onto on the bottom of the magazine; it is therefore extremely difficult to remove the Sig P238 6 round magazine from the Ammo Armor sleeve. Another thing with the Sig P238 6 round magazine - the Ammo Armor sleeve is so small that when you put it under your arm and squeeze it with your arm, it doesn't reduce its hold on the magazine like the one for the Ruger EC9S magazine does. With the Ruger magazine, when your arm squeezes on the Ammo Armor sleeve, the sleeve eases up on how tightly it is holding on to the magazine; plus, there is a lip at the bottom of the Ruger magazine that you can pull on.

In summary, the Ammo Armor sleeve works very well with the Ruger EC9S magazine, but it is terrible with the Sig P238 6 round magazine.
 
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