testtest

Should You Choose a Pump-Action or Semi-Automatic Shotgun for Home Defense?

HayesGreener said:
I have used shotguns for hunting and competition more than 60 years, used them often in my LE career, and have taught hundreds of officers in defensive use of the shotgun. When people ask my advice on a home defense firearm, I will most often recommend a pump shotgun, unless they are a proficient pistol or rifle shot.

I have been present twice when a suspect was shot center mass at close range with 00 and that ended the aggression. At the ranges present in most residential rooms, the shotgun is a devastating fight stopper. There is a definite psychological effect on miscreants when the shotgun is deployed.

Most of my experience has been with Remington 870's or Ithaca 37's since that is mostly what most LE agencies have used over the past 70 years. LE training doctrine calls for the shotgun to be carried with the tube loaded and an empty chamber, with the safety "on", in what is called the "cruiser safe" condition, to minimize the potential for negligent discharges. The gun is charged when responding to a perceived threat.

A lot of my students over the years thought they knew how to operate a shotgun until we put them under pressure to load, reload, and operate the gun in a combat course of fire and they all of a sudden became all thumbs and forgot there the controls are. You have to practice with these guns.

Users must practice releasing the slide lock and the safety in order to chamber a round and fire. Semi autos that are not maintained properly are prone to malfunction more so than pump guns but any can fail. Any shotgun requires training and practice in manipulation of the controls and action as they are not intuitive. Recoil is a problem for some shooters but the effects of recoil can be minimized with proper technique. I am comfortable with them. If I knew I was going into CQB, my first choice is my 870 with #4 buck.
Click to expand...
If I couldn’t have an actual MP5….my Benelli M1 Tactical with Federal’s #1 Buck FliteControl would be my choice.
 
TSiWRX said:
Ain't my fault if someone didn't stock it deep while it was cheap and readily available! :) I've only been urging that to just about every newer shooter I'd come across, since I (as a shooter who came into the sport/hobby in Q.3 of 2010) had to live through the last half of the previous craze! :)
Click to expand...

Don't look at me, I got mine. I'm not overly enamored with the 8 pellet FC stuff over the regular LE 9 pellet FC stuff though. I do have both, but this stuff is not for training. I would be willing to bet I have more 12 gauge ammo in stock than anyone I know, in real life or on the internet. I think too many people read crap on the internet and take it as gospel. The FC stuff shoots nice and tight, but I have about 10 other loads patterned or zero'ed in 4 different shotguns currently. I have little or no concern about over penetration and a tight pattern or a looser pattern is a situational and load specific consideration. Sometimes 27 pellets spreading out 14.5" is a nice thing. A Flite Control #1 buck load would be something I would like to check out too.
 
HayesGreener said:
The advent of technology advances like Vang Comp shotgun barrels and Federal Control Flite wads have changed everything with respect to keeping the shot on the target.

#8 birdshot will do a number on the target at 7 yards, if that's all you have available. You can deal with varmints of all sorts with a bird gun, within living room ranges. In our defensive shotgun course we fire about 100 rounds. Only 25 of that is 00, because the recoil becomes intolerable in some shooters after a while. We shoot the remainder of the course with #8 for practice and training.
Click to expand...
Birdshot ( 7 1/2 or 8 ) is nice for training for reloads and manipulation. It's also good for building speed and accuracy with timed, multiple target drills. It would never be a consideration for HD/SD for me.
 
KillerFord1977 said:
Agree
One can deter all they want outside of their home.
If a perp up to ill will is INSIDE a home, then all bets are off. It is indicative of the homeowner to defend themselves.
Why on earth would someone “rack” a slide either pistol or shotgun to “ deter” someone. Or even try to chase them out of the home with the noise of a racking. Why even own a gun at that point.
If there is not a round in the chamber, the slide is getting racked the second I grab the gun before one even begins to engage the perp. Its all for show on TV for the non gun, have no clue about firearm crowd.
Click to expand...
It comes in handy for giving away your position. Some guns stored certain ways, especially with inexperienced shooters, Cruiser ready is good. Bassbob does NOT do cruiser ready. YMMV
 
Bassbob said:
Don't look at me, I got mine. I'm not overly enamored with the 8 pellet FC stuff over the regular LE 9 pellet FC stuff though. I do have both, but this stuff is not for training. I would be willing to bet I have more 12 gauge ammo in stock than anyone I know, in real life or on the internet. I think too many people read crap on the internet and take it as gospel. The FC stuff shoots nice and tight, but I have about 10 other loads patterned or zero'ed in 4 different shotguns currently. I have little or no concern about over penetration and a tight pattern or a looser pattern is a situational and load specific consideration. Sometimes 27 pellets spreading out 14.5" is a nice thing. A Flite Control #1 buck load would be something I would like to check out too.
Click to expand...
I’ve got just under a case of Federal #1 (now discontinued); an unopened case of 9 pellet 00, plus maybe half a case?…Flite control.

Just under 2 cases of Winchester Ranger 00 8-pelllet low recoil…

3/4 case Brenneke #4 low recoil.

Slugs? I’ve got a couple of M249 cans full of various mfg…but, flat out: the Brenneke Rottweil is the best performing slug I’ve ever worked with (I call it the “deer hammer”, because it just knocks them down). I’m down to under 100 rounds of it…
 
Bassbob said:
I think too many people read crap on the internet and take it as gospel. The FC stuff shoots nice and tight, but I have about 10 other loads patterned or zero'ed in 4 different shotguns currently. I have little or no concern about over penetration and a tight pattern or a looser pattern is a situational and load specific consideration. Sometimes 27 pellets spreading out 14.5" is a nice thing. A Flite Control #1 buck load would be something I would like to check out too.
Click to expand...

Absolutely - I think that this is a huge problem.

Overall, of-course, this is an issue, but specific to the shotgun, a lot of folks don't realize that how any one of our unique (i.e. that weapon, with that unique serial number) may pattern can be quite different from another example of the same weapon that might well be otherwise identical.

People see/read about Federal's Flitecontrol wad without realizing that it's neither a guaranty nor cure-all. Similarly, they don't realize that their misconceptions of the shotgun "not needing to be aimed" sadly overlaps dangerously with just how the weapon will perform in real-life, particularly when they use their perceived-favorite load with that gun.

Using myself as an example, Flitecontrol is the difference between 25 yards and 40 yards being viable with buckshot, particularly with that 9th pellet being much, much less predictable. But this is on my run-of-the-mill 870...with my current lot of ammo. A different gun, a different lot, and things may -in all likelihood probably won't- be the same.

Folks -and I know that I'm preaching to the choir, here: I'm just hoping that a newbie might read this and be encouraged to do so!- need to realize that particularly for the gauge, they really need to get out there and pattern.
 
Bassbob said:
Birdshot ( 7 1/2 or 8 ) is nice for training for reloads and manipulation. It's also good for building speed and accuracy with timed, multiple target drills. It would never be a consideration for HD/SD for me.
Click to expand...
I agree.

Birdshot should only be used on mammals that weigh under 20#.

Any mammal over that?

Buck-#ucking-shot.
 
TSiWRX said:
Absolutely - I think that this is a huge problem.

Overall, of-course, this is an issue, but specific to the shotgun, a lot of folks don't realize that how any one of our unique (i.e. that weapon, with that unique serial number) may pattern can be quite different from another example of the same weapon that might well be otherwise identical.

People see/read about Federal's Flitecontrol wad without realizing that it's neither a guaranty nor cure-all. Similarly, they don't realize that their misconceptions of the shotgun "not needing to be aimed" sadly overlaps dangerously with just how the weapon will perform in real-life, particularly when they use their perceived-favorite load with that gun.

Using myself as an example, Flitecontrol is the difference between 25 yards and 40 yards being viable with buckshot, particularly with that 9th pellet being much, much less predictable. But this is on my run-of-the-mill 870...with my current lot of ammo. A different gun, a different lot, and things may -in all likelihood probably won't- be the same.

Folks -and I know that I'm preaching to the choir, here: I'm just hoping that a newbie might read this and be encouraged to do so!- need to realize that particularly for the gauge, they really need to get out there and pattern.
Click to expand...

Amen.

Too many people think that whatever they buy will work just fine in their chosen weapon, no need to test.

For the most part…they’re right.

But when they’re not…it really, REALLY sucks donkey balls.

So always find out what works in YOUR weapon.

(@TSiWRX -I KNOW you don’t need to hear this.

But other folks…DO.)
 
HansGruber said:
I’ve got just under a case of Federal #1 (now discontinued); an unopened case of 9 pellet 00, plus maybe half a case?…Flite control.

Just under 2 cases of Winchester Ranger 00 8-pelllet low recoil…

3/4 case Brenneke #4 low recoil.

Slugs? I’ve got a couple of M249 cans full of various mfg…but, flat out: the Brenneke Rottweil is the best performing slug I’ve ever worked with (I call it the “deer hammer”, because it just knocks them down). I’m down to under 100 rounds of it…
Click to expand...
You've got more Flite Control than me for sure. I'm loathe to put out exact numbers, but I definitely don't have a lot of low recoil anything. I have a stupid amount of 1600 FPS Truball slugs. I have at least 7 or 8 different varieties of 00B, most 9 pellet, in bulk.
 
HansGruber said:
Amen.

Too many people think that whatever they buy will work just fine in their chosen weapon, no need to test.

For the most part…they’re right.

But when they’re not…it really, REALLY sucks donkey balls.

So always find out what works in YOUR weapon.

(@TSiWRX -I KNOW you don’t need to hear this.

But other folks…DO.)
Click to expand...
Every load I intend to use gets patterned or zero'ed in every shotgun I plan to use it in. And every round in or on every shotgun I own gets patterned before I put it on the gun.
 
Bassbob said:
You've got more Flite Control than me for sure. I'm loathe to put out exact numbers, but I definitely don't have a lot of low recoil anything. I have a stupid amount of 1600 FPS Truball slugs. I have at least 7 or 8 different varieties of 00B, most 9 pellet, in bulk.
Click to expand...
I’ve got a good amount of Truball…but I don’t think I’ve played with it much, because of my Rottweil experience.

May need to.
 
HansGruber said:
I’ve got a good amount of Truball…but I don’t think I’ve played with it much, because of my Rottweil experience.

May need to.
Click to expand...
Hits pretty hard for a 1 oz rifled lead slug. The recoil is nowhere near as bad as I thought it would be when I first bought some a few years ago. Kinda my go to now. Affordable, available and effective.
 
I've always been under the impression that the primary reason for a 'Cruiser safe' status is that typical shotguns use a trigger blocking mechanical safety rather than a sear and/or hammer blocking safety. Obviously not all shotguns have only a trigger block, but I'm not up enough on shotguns to know which they are off the top of my head as with most folks.

Some of you shotgun experts like Bassbob and/or HayesGreener probably know right off. Certainly more than I know.
 
jumpinjoe said:
I've always been under the impression that the primary reason for a 'Cruiser safe' status is that typical shotguns use a trigger blocking mechanical safety rather than a sear and/or hammer blocking safety. Obviously not all shotguns have only a trigger block, but I'm not up enough on shotguns to know which they are off the top of my head as with most folks.

Some of you shotgun experts like Bassbob and/or HayesGreener probably know right off. Certainly more than I know.
Click to expand...
That’s a good point…I’ve always been under the impression that “cruiser ready” was:

Full tube
Empty chamber
Safety off
Trigger pulled

So all it took was racking the slide to be ready.

That’s how all of my pump guns are…
 
HansGruber said:
That’s a good point…I’ve always been under the impression that “cruiser ready” was:

Full tube
Empty chamber
Safety off
Trigger pulled

So all it took was racking the slide to be ready.

That’s how all of my pump guns are…
Click to expand...
"Cruiser Ready" condition in current LE training doctrine is chamber empty, trigger released, and safety "ON". Thus the action is unlocked and you don't have to release the slide to chamber a round. Going back to the 60's and 70's, Cruiser Ready was as you said, with the safety "OFF", but the training protocol was changed, probably because something stupid happened. I make my students start out all strings with the action locked and safety "ON", as it forces them to go through the process of releasing the slide and safety in all the drills. It should become instinctive so they don't find themselves unable to work the slide or safety when the big pressure is on.
 
jumpinjoe said:
I've always been under the impression that the primary reason for a 'Cruiser safe' status is that typical shotguns use a trigger blocking mechanical safety rather than a sear and/or hammer blocking safety. Obviously not all shotguns have only a trigger block, but I'm not up enough on shotguns to know which they are off the top of my head as with most folks.

Some of you shotgun experts like Bassbob and/or HayesGreener probably know right off. Certainly more than I know.
Click to expand...
Most people (Civilians) who keep them in cruiser status say it's because most pump guns aren't "Drop safe". Legitimate enough if you plan on dropping your shotgun.

Most shotguns don't have light triggers like a 1911, so the same rules as you adhere to with your safetyless striker gun apply. Of course unless you have your gun hanging off a hook or you plan on dropping it.
 
This video is a pretty good explanation of how to manipulate, say a slug into your shotgun when you have the tube full of buckshot. Or vice versa I suppose.

This pretty much only works with pump shotguns. With a Benelli or a Beretta you will either have to cycle the round out by hand and drop your slug into the chamber emergency reload style.

 
While I can't/won't argue any of the several replies above, I still didn't see the actual answer I think was being explored: Why is it that shotguns specifically are not typically carried/packed in a loaded status with the safety ON?

All the conditions mentioned make sense, but we all carry our pistols full loaded, usually one in the pipe and safety on. Why only the shotgun is packed 'cruiser ready/safe'?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top