Sig Has a Lawsuit

[BassCliff]

Hi,

And as for the other two hacks - I mean lawyers - if you’ve got two hours of your life to waste on their unbelievably bad videos, you’ve got too much time on your hands.

The civil lawyer was impressed with several things in the filing, the points mentioned and the wording of the complaints, etc. There was about 20 minutes of really interesting material in the two hours, the rest being background and conjecture. I'm a Branca fan anyway and Dani Ahn is just as sweet as she can be. At least with the Youtube recording you can listen in the background while doing something else constructive, then back it up if something piques your interest.

This is not an "anti-gun" or "gun control" lawsuit. It's basically a faulty product liability case with twenty or so plaintiffs. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[Annihilator]

Enough said!

 

[RickAnderson]

I was going to say, the drop fire issue was discover very early and corrected, and it doesn't appear to be related. The guy in this video points out the drop fire is not related, and it has been fixed.

AFA people staging drop fire videos, from my reading it was pretty well documented, verified, a fix designed and implemented. It passed the military drop tests, but when the issue was discovered, the military retested and found it failed. Once the cause was understood, it was very easy to duplicate, and that is why you saw a bunch of videos on youtube of people duplicating it.

I'm skeptical of the speculation its the holster pulling the trigger. I don't know all the accounts, but all of the ones I have seen are after the pistol has been holstered. If holsters pulling the trigger is causing this, I would think we would see most of the discharges happening while holstering the pistol, I haven't heard of one yet.

We've haven't heard of the Military complaining of these events, and they do have a manual safety that blocks the trigger from being pulled, so that is evidence that goes toward holsters pulling the trigger...

The military is reporting they are finding the firing pin block safety failing in their high round count pistols. Its easy to replace to repair it, so the military is just doing an inspection cycle and fixing them when they find it. Another thing different about the P320, all my other pistols have a solid block/cylinder of steel to block the firing pin, using a helical coil compression spring and it requires a very deliberate motion to clear the firing pin. The P320 has a sheet metal stamping with a torsion spring with a single coil, and clears with barely moving.

I am curious of the Sear Walk-Off, the Milwaukee Police Armorer spoke about, the also talked about missing return springs, and the guy that had a P320 go off in the holster with his hands up in a competition, Sig told him his pistol had a defective return spring. My own tinkering with my P320 M18, I have found, unlike all my other pistols, if the sear is moved, it back drives the trigger and firing pin block as it moves. Thus, if a Sear actually walked off, the trigger would pull and the firing pin block would be cleared as it walked off.

But Sears shouldn't walk off, and that might be why they are so few of these incidents compared to the total amount of P320's sold, like the guy in the video says, the Sear Surface is very small. Could a few defective Sears be behind this?

If you purchased the M17 or M18 version with safety looks like you were good. If not I would not load this firearm up for any reason

There were other P320's with the manual safety, not just the M17 or M18, but they are minority. Also keep in mind, Sig sold a M17 and M18 kit, to drop your P320 fire control unit into, so you may find what looks like or claimed to be a M17/M18 that has no manual safety.

 

[jmcd]

Came across this today:

‘Dangerously defective’ pistol fires even if you don’t touch the trigger, lawsuit says

The gun, sold in the U.S., is the “most dangerous” for whoever uses it, the lawsuit states.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Hammer67]

Fascinating that his seems to overwhelmingly be happening to LEOs. As already mentioned in this thread, I haven't heard of similar incidents with the M17/M18s that various militaries, including our own, are using. There are also numerous people using P320s for competition, haven't heard of any spontaneous discharges at competitive events either....

I'll leave it at that.

 

[KillerFord1977]

Fascinating that his seems to overwhelmingly be happening to LEOs. As already mentioned in this thread, I haven't heard of similar incidents with the M17/M18s that various militaries, including our own, are using. There are also numerous people using P320s for competition, haven't heard of any spontaneous discharges at competitive events either....

I'll leave it at that.

One you tube video in the last month happened at a competition with witnesses. They claim

 

[Hammer67]

One you tube video in the last month happened at a competition with witnesses. They claim

If anyone has a link, I'd love to see it. But I'm not going to waste time searching for it.

 

[KillerFord1977]

If anyone has a link, I'd love to see it. But I'm not going to waste time searching for it.

 

[Hammer67]

Thanks for digging that up and sharing it.

I'm not a P320 fanboy by any means, although I've owned several, still own one, and have never had a single issue over 1,000s of rounds and full days of professional training with one. It's not really my chosen platform anymore, but not because I have ever had any functional issues with them, or experienced anything that would lead me to conclude they are unsafe.

That said, there really isn't much of anything definitive than can be drawn from that video. It's one person relaying a story. It's entirely possible that everything he says is true, and that a broken firing pin spring somehow caused the gun to spontaneously go off, but I wouldn't say any of that is verifiable from the video. Photos of bruises and a broken knife don't really prove anything, except that the gun went off, which isn't actually what is in question - the question is how exactly did it go off, and while the guy in the vid provides an answer, he doesn't actually provide any proof. Just sayin.

 

[Annihilator]

After watching the video I am still skeptical on this issue, while the guy seems totally honest in his incident, even though Sig stated there was a faulty spring, I wasn’t there to witness the event. Also it doesn’t take any lawyer long in this day and age to go after a manufacturer especially a firearm manufacturer to start a lawsuit, as it’s been said here, seems like most of these incidents have been with LEO’s. If any can remember when the big hoopla over the 1911 going off if dropped, that started the firing pins blocks, then some went the route of titanium firing pins and heavier firing pins springs, now they went back to the original design firing pin system, which is nothing. I agree something is going on, is it the gun or poor or no training, nobody will admit to any of this but let’s just blame the gun and sue.

 

[Annihilator]

Also on another note, if he took apart his X-five legion and removed the FCU and didn’t realize this pin fell out, which there noted to do
Then the safety will not work, pin is supposed to be here where I circled

Most do not know this pin will just fall out if you remove the FCU unless your familiar with Sig products, how do I know it falls out, mine did and when I contacted Sig, they said yea, it can fall out, so when I ordered one and I also got a second for those just in cases incidents

 

[jmcd]

Also on another note, if he took apart his X-five legion and removed the FCU and didn’t realize this pin fell out, which there noted to doView attachment 33263
Then the safety will not work, pin is supposed to be here where I circled
View attachment 33264
Most do not know this pin will just fall out if you remove the FCU unless your familiar with Sig products, how do I know it falls out, mine did and when I contacted Sig, they said yea, it can fall out, so when I ordered one and I also got a second for those just in cases incidents

Thanks for the tip. Mine hasn't fallen out yet.

 

[KillerFord1977]

Thanks for digging that up and sharing it.

I'm not a P320 fanboy by any means, although I've owned several, still own one, and have never had a single issue over 1,000s of rounds and full days of professional training with one. It's not really my chosen platform anymore, but not because I have ever had any functional issues with them, or experienced anything that would lead me to conclude they are unsafe.

That said, there really isn't much of anything definitive than can be drawn from that video. It's one person relaying a story. It's entirely possible that everything he says is true, and that a broken firing pin spring somehow caused the gun to spontaneously go off, but I wouldn't say any of that is verifiable from the video. Photos of bruises and a broken knife don't really prove anything, except that the gun went off, which isn't actually what is in question - the question is how exactly did it go off, and while the guy in the vid provides an answer, he doesn't actually provide any proof. Just sayin.

Oh, I agree
My stance on the P320 is that I have Zero issue with what I own.
He stated he is new to competitive shooting and new to the platform . Issues with firearm or was an issue from him in an environment where he screwed up and blaming the gun
Who knows

 

[RickAnderson]

Fascinating that his seems to overwhelmingly be happening to LEOs. As already mentioned in this thread, I haven't heard of similar incidents with the M17/M18s that various militaries, including our own, are using. There are also numerous people using P320s for competition, haven't heard of any spontaneous discharges at competitive events either....

I'll leave it at that.

Who keeps their pistols constantly loaded, round in the chamber, striker cocked. And in the case of the P320, its cocked and unlocked. Then while that pistol spends weeks, even months, cocked and unlocked, its also being shook, jarred, vibrated, impacted, as the cops run, tackles, wrestle with perps, constantly getting in and out of cars, bumping their pistols into things. Cars do vibrate as they drive, and vibration is perfect for allowing things under pressure to creep.

Cops do.

The military M17/M18 have manual safeties.

Thanks for digging that up and sharing it.

I'm not a P320 fanboy by any means, although I've owned several, still own one, and have never had a single issue over 1,000s of rounds and full days of professional training with one. It's not really my chosen platform anymore, but not because I have ever had any functional issues with them, or experienced anything that would lead me to conclude they are unsafe.

That said, there really isn't much of anything definitive than can be drawn from that video. It's one person relaying a story. It's entirely possible that everything he says is true, and that a broken firing pin spring somehow caused the gun to spontaneously go off, but I wouldn't say any of that is verifiable from the video. Photos of bruises and a broken knife don't really prove anything, except that the gun went off, which isn't actually what is in question - the question is how exactly did it go off, and while the guy in the vid provides an answer, he doesn't actually provide any proof. Just sayin.

So you're saying the guy is lying and just made it all up? But he is not suing, so what is his motivation to make a video to promulgate his lies? Why would he claim he had multiple witness's if he didn't, he's just asking for someone to find his claimed witness's and prove he is lying. If he was suing, he would have to do better than that to prove it in court that is true. But he is not suing and youtube or this forum are not a courtroom. Like all the videos posted in the thread, with perhaps the exception of those recreating the drop fires, don't prove anything, they are information to be considered.

Also on another note, if he took apart his X-five legion and removed the FCU and didn’t realize this pin fell out, which there noted to doView attachment 33263
Then the safety will not work, pin is supposed to be here where I circled
View attachment 33264
Most do not know this pin will just fall out if you remove the FCU unless your familiar with Sig products, how do I know it falls out, mine did and when I contacted Sig, they said yea, it can fall out, so when I ordered one and I also got a second for those just in cases incidents

I'm confused, the FCU in the photo does NOT have a manual safety, so how does the pin falling out cause a safety that doesn't exist to not work?

Are you talking about the Firing Pin Block or the Safety Features for disassembly that are suppose to prevent accidental discharges during cleaning. I believe the bar that would surround that pin if it were in, I believe is responsible for interacting with the take-down lever and create those interlocks for cleaning safety. The take-down lever not being able to move unless the slide is locked back and the during re-assembly if the slide is not locked back when the take-down lever is locked, the trigger will be disabled until the slide is locked back.

But how does disabling any of those feature, including the firing pin stop cause the sear to let go of the striker and cause the pistol to fire without touching the trigger?

 

[Hammer67]

So you're saying the guy is lying and just made it all up? But he is not suing, so what is his motivation to make a video to promulgate his lies? Why would he claim he had multiple witness's if he didn't, he's just asking for someone to find his claimed witness's and prove he is lying. If he was suing, he would have to do better than that to prove it in court that is true. But he is not suing and youtube or this forum are not a courtroom.

No, I'm not accusing him of lying. In fact, I very clearly said above that he very well could be telling the truth. I'm simply pointing out that the video does not actually provide any verifiable proof. I have no interest in speculating on motives, but on the other hand, I'm also not going to blindly assume that just because someone isn't suing Sig that that means their account is accurate.

Like all the videos posted in the thread, with perhaps the exception of those recreating the drop fires, don't prove anything, they are information to be considered.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm pointing out. As consumers of info, I think we need to be keenly aware and discerning of what is merely "information to be considered" vs. hard evidence of fact. That may seem obvious, but I see people all the time confusing the former with the latter. Just because someone made a video and put it on the internet doesn't make it real.

There's nothing in the video that proves his account of the incident, pure and simple. That doesn't mean he's automatically lying, it simply means what I said - that the video doesn't provide proof to back up the account.

 

[Annihilator]

Who keeps their pistols constantly loaded, round in the chamber, striker cocked. And in the case of the P320, its cocked and unlocked. Then while that pistol spends weeks, even months, cocked and unlocked, its also being shook, jarred, vibrated, impacted, as the cops run, tackles, wrestle with perps, constantly getting in and out of cars, bumping their pistols into things. Cars do vibrate as they drive, and vibration is perfect for allowing things under pressure to creep.

Cops do.

The military M17/M18 have manual safeties.


So you're saying the guy is lying and just made it all up? But he is not suing, so what is his motivation to make a video to promulgate his lies? Why would he claim he had multiple witness's if he didn't, he's just asking for someone to find his claimed witness's and prove he is lying. If he was suing, he would have to do better than that to prove it in court that is true. But he is not suing and youtube or this forum are not a courtroom. Like all the videos posted in the thread, with perhaps the exception of those recreating the drop fires, don't prove anything, they are information to be considered.


I'm confused, the FCU in the photo does NOT have a manual safety, so how does the pin falling out cause a safety that doesn't exist to not work?

Are you talking about the Firing Pin Block or the Safety Features for disassembly that are suppose to prevent accidental discharges during cleaning. I believe the bar that would surround that pin if it were in, I believe is responsible for interacting with the take-down lever and create those interlocks for cleaning safety. The take-down lever not being able to move unless the slide is locked back and the during re-assembly if the slide is not locked back when the take-down lever is locked, the trigger will be disabled until the slide is locked back.

But how does disabling any of those feature, including the firing pin stop cause the sear to let go of the striker and cause the pistol to fire without touching the trigger?

No it doesn’t have a manual safety, the pin that can fall out takes the place of the manual safety, X-fives do not have a manual safety, if this pin falls out during removal of the FCU, the safety lever will not work, it needs this pin to put leverage on the safety lever that moves up, without this pin there is no leverage for the safety lever to move up. Some fall out, others don’t, when I lost mine cause I didn’t know it fell out, gun did not work right. The P320’s that gave a manual safety are not having issues

 

[Keystone19250]

Who keeps their pistols constantly loaded, round in the chamber, striker cocked. And in the case of the P320, its cocked and unlocked. Then while that pistol spends weeks, even months, cocked and unlocked, its also being shook, jarred, vibrated, impacted, as the cops run, tackles, wrestle with perps, constantly getting in and out of cars, bumping their pistols into things. Cars do vibrate as they drive, and vibration is perfect for allowing things under pressure to creep.

Cops do.

The military M17/M18 have manual safeties.


So you're saying the guy is lying and just made it all up? But he is not suing, so what is his motivation to make a video to promulgate his lies? Why would he claim he had multiple witness's if he didn't, he's just asking for someone to find his claimed witness's and prove he is lying. If he was suing, he would have to do better than that to prove it in court that is true. But he is not suing and youtube or this forum are not a courtroom. Like all the videos posted in the thread, with perhaps the exception of those recreating the drop fires, don't prove anything, they are information to be considered.


I'm confused, the FCU in the photo does NOT have a manual safety, so how does the pin falling out cause a safety that doesn't exist to not work?

Are you talking about the Firing Pin Block or the Safety Features for disassembly that are suppose to prevent accidental discharges during cleaning. I believe the bar that would surround that pin if it were in, I believe is responsible for interacting with the take-down lever and create those interlocks for cleaning safety. The take-down lever not being able to move unless the slide is locked back and the during re-assembly if the slide is not locked back when the take-down lever is locked, the trigger will be disabled until the slide is locked back.

But how does disabling any of those feature, including the firing pin stop cause the sear to let go of the striker and cause the pistol to fire without touching the trigger?

You had me interested in what you were saying until you said…….
“Accidental discharge during cleaning”
Seriously???
Who cleans, or “starts the cleaning”process of their gun with it loaded??
I’m hoping you misspoke if not I hope you clean your guns in a concrete bunker all by yourself.

 

[nmedge]

Personally when I was in military I was known to be "bat **** crazy". With this in mind if someone wanted me to use, carry, or purchase a P320 I would take them to get their head examined! Has Sig brainwashed so many people to leave doubt that this gun is safe? Maybe they are a great gunmaker but when it comes to the P320 they made a turd, plain and simple.

 

[Keystone19250]

You had me interested in what you were saying until you said…….
“Accidental discharge during cleaning”
Seriously???
Who cleans, or “starts the cleaning”process of their gun with it loaded??
I’m hoping you misspoke if not I hope you clean your guns in a concrete bunker all by yourself.

@RickAnderson
My post about your post was not meant to draw a laughing response, if you find that funny then that is pathetic.

 

[RickAnderson]

You had me interested in what you were saying until you said…….
“Accidental discharge during cleaning”
Seriously???
Who cleans, or “starts the cleaning”process of their gun with it loaded??
I’m hoping you misspoke if not I hope you clean your guns in a concrete bunker all by yourself.

....Are you talking about the Firing Pin Block or the Safety Features for disassembly that are suppose to prevent accidental discharges during cleaning.....

Please explain to me why an M17/M18 will have the takedown lever locked unless the slide is locked back and the magazine removed? Why did Sig design a pistol to do that?

Who negligently discharges a firearm, then says, "I thought the gun was unloaded"? Yet, we see it all the time.
There is a new thread discussing a news report of a cop accidentally shooting his roommate, clowning around with his pistol and claimed he thought the pistol was unloaded.

Wasn't there a past thread about a cop that accidentally shot someone else while cleaning his gun.

Google "accidental shooting while cleaning" and see the number of headlines, pages and pages of them, for news reports of accidentally shootings while cleaning firearm.

My Ruger 22/45 Mark III had a magazine disconnect, and the manual state it was for safety while cleaning.
I have read the Army required safety provisions for cleaning during their service pistol competition. That is the M17/M18 inability to throw the take-down lever with a magazine in, without the slide locked back and the pistol has to be re-assembled with the take-down lever only thrown after the slide is locked back or the trigger will be disabled.

I have read in the past, one of the leading causes of accidental discharges is while cleaning. I searched and cannot find a breakdown of accidental shooting statistics to support that, so I will not claim it is true. But sufficive to say, accidental discharges while cleaning happens way more than it should.

Yes, its carelessness and negligence, that people start to clean a firearm and don't notice it is still loaded, or reassemble a firearm and somehow get a round loaded into during the process of re-assemble. The field strip and re-assembly is where people violate some of the safety rules about where you point a weapon and how you operate it, in order to break it down or re-assemble it. If its loaded, you can have a serious accident. And people do fail to realize a weapon is still loaded due to carelessness and negligence.

I'm not making an excuse for them, I am pointing out a reality, it happens.

@RickAnderson
My post about your post was not meant to draw a laughing response, if you find that funny then that is pathetic.

My laughter is at your reaction to a statement about accidental discharges while cleaning. You've never heard of this happening?

Again, I am not making any excuses for those that do accidentally discharge a firearm while cleaning it. I totally agree its gross carelessness and negligence. I was only commenting on the M17/M18 safety features for preventing accidental discharges while cleaning, can you explain to me what other reason why an M17/M18 won't allow the take-down lever to turn, unless the magazine is removed and slide locked back?