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So I’m going to a outdoor gun range

cico7 said:
IT doesn't excite me that someone who does not own a gun or had classes can get a CCW permit. I think that lends to the socialist' belief it is too easy to own and carry a firearm. I do like their support of the 2A.
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That's just how it is in a SHALL issue state sometimes. It's up to you to educate yourself. And I fully agree there are many individuals that bought guns and haven't done the first thing to educate themselves on safety. Nor trained how to at least hit the broad side of a barn and not their neighbors house. Unfortunately that's their right to be stupid also!

In my friends defense ... they totally believe in 2A and everyone's right to carry, and are glad many people in our state do, but they were never raised around guns and know nothing ... nothing about them. He admittedly was a work-a-holic all of his career, always transferring to new locations and never took the time to learn about them either. But as he says, no one is gonna tell him he can't either. So in his mind, getting his CCW is his way of protecting his rights and supporting ours.

He also said he's not going to just go out and buy a gun, something he knows nothing about, to say he's got one either. He fully understands the responsibility of owning a gun. He may take the time to learn and get a handgun one day ... if he ever quits working his retirement away.
 
Yep I have to agree that for someone to carry concealed legally, I’d like to have had someone honestly & officially say they have some training on the laws and know how their firearm works and how to use it safely.
 
Haroldg48 said:
Yep I have to agree that for someone to carry concealed legally, I’d like to have had someone honestly & officially say they have some training on the laws and know how their firearm works and how to use it safely.
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So you think the 2A should have come with government mandated stipulations. So which training courses should be officially sanctioned ? What about poor, inner city folks who can't afford decent guns, can barely afford ammo or shoes much less training classes, driving to a range somewhere in the burbs and drilling, but live in say the south side of Chicago or anyplace in N. St. Louis ? They're just out of luck I guess.
 
Haroldg48 said:
no, anyone that has the right to own a gun legally can have as many as they can get. I’d just dont want someone around me or my family with a concealed gun that doesn't know how (or when) to use it.
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Well, I wouldn't take your family to any major city then. 23 people were shot in STL last weekend. 4 or 5 of them less than a couple blocks from the ballpark.
 
Bassbob said:
So you think the 2A should have come with government mandated stipulations. So which training courses should be officially sanctioned ? What about poor, inner city folks who can't afford decent guns, can barely afford ammo or shoes much less training classes, driving to a range somewhere in the burbs and drilling, but live in say the south side of Chicago or anyplace in N. St. Louis ? They're just out of luck I guess.
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This is a very interesting subject that bears thought and discussion. 2A is 2A and does not discriminate.
Anyone has the right.
We should push for permits and training but not to the exclusion of others. How do we bring others into the fold?

Anyone with a voter registration card should get a CC permit automatically! That just blew out my objectivity.
 
I think with RIGHTS... come RESPONSIBILITIES.. Anybody can watch any number of good gun safety vids yooyube for free. Even in the South side of Chicago. Yes it is your Right to own/carry a firearm..but there is no excuse for not educating yourself in the safe manner in which to do so. Actual training is better. I highly recommend basic and advanced handgun classes. Also.. CHL Classes go into alot of legal stuff you need to know. Laws vary State to State, so taking a CHL class in YOUR State is a smart thing to do.
 
Frank 2041 said:
I think with RIGHTS... come RESPONSIBILITIES.. Anybody can watch any number of good gun safety vids yooyube for free. Even in the South side of Chicago. Yes it is your Right to own/carry a firearm..but there is no excuse for not educating yourself in the safe manner in which to do so. Actual training is better. I highly recommend basic and advanced handgun classes. Also.. CHL Classes go into alot of legal stuff you need to know. Laws vary State to State, so taking a CHL class in YOUR State is a smart thing to do.
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Yeah. We all think so. I have more training than is necessary to be a cop. I draw the line at the government making stipulations on who’s rights to violate based on criteria they choose. If they got away with that it would be a matter of hours or days before the mandated qualifications were rigid enough to exclude all of us.


Me, I don’t worry about what kind of training other people have. It’s not my business. If you think there aren’t thousands and thousands of untrained armed hood rats and scum walking around at any given time you’re insane. No such law/ mandate would stop that.
 
Bassbob said:
Yeah. We all think so. I have more training than is necessary to be a cop. I draw the line at the government making stipulations on who’s rights to violate based on criteria they choose. If they got away with that it would be a matter of hours or days before the mandated qualifications were rigid enough to exclude all of us.


Me, I don’t worry about what kind of training other people have. It’s not my business. If you think there aren’t thousands and thousands of untrained armed hood rats and scum walking around at any given time you’re insane. No such law/ mandate would stop that.
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That’s all great till you got a person with little or no training or experience with a weapon and he’s drawn up on the target just past you. Does anything matter then? There’s two sides to this story and both have a turn in them
 
Bassbob said:
Yeah. We all think so. I have more training than is necessary to be a cop. I draw the line at the government making stipulations on who’s rights to violate based on criteria they choose. If they got away with that it would be a matter of hours or days before the mandated qualifications were rigid enough to exclude all of us.


Me, I don’t worry about what kind of training other people have. It’s not my business. If you think there aren’t thousands and thousands of untrained armed hood rats and scum walking around at any given time you’re insane. No such law/ mandate would stop that.
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I'm with you.. The Constitution IS....our carry permit. And don't want any mandates. But even people who live in Chicago and St Louis can get their broke a55 on their free Obama phone and watch a few basic safety vids. There is no excuse for not having some safety training. As far as the hood rats go..your right. I guess i thought you were talking about law abiding citizens living in crime infested areas having the ability to protect their family.
 
Frank 2041 said:
I'm with you.. The Constitution IS....our carry permit. And don't want any mandates. But even people who live in Chicago and St Louis can get their broke a55 on their free Obama phone and watch a few basic safety vids. There is no excuse for not having some safety training. As far as the hood rats go..your right. I guess i thought you were talking about law abiding citizens living in crime infested areas having the ability to protect their family.
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There's two points there. First and foremost the government does not have the authority, nor should they have the authority, to put criteria and restrictions on constitutional rights. In the past all those people who thought they were asking for reasonable safety requirements with regards to the 2A are the ones who let the camel's nose under the tent. Here we are in what's supposed to be the most free country in earth's history and the framers of our constitution saw fit to codify our right to arm ourselves in defense of ourselves, others and the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic. Now a couple hundred years later we had to fight for 40 years to get that same government to allow us to carry a handgun for our own defense. And here we have gun owners belly aching about legal law abiding citizens and mandating that they be forced to have someone's idea of training in order to exercise their god given, constitutionally protected right to bear arms. And it doesn't occur to these people that asking for the government to put more restrictions on the 2A is a terrible idea? The government, you know, the same people that have made themselves the rulers of our universe and since the inception of this country have been collecting and codifying as much centralized power as they could. The same people who have stomped all over our rights for centuries.

Yeah, we all train. We all prefer and assume that reasonable, responsible gun owners train or at least familiarize themselves with basic gun safety. But making a law that mandates it, as you well know, gives the government the power to also decide what training criteria is required.

Here's an exercise in research. Using Google add up all the stats for any given year on crimes committed with guns. Then using Google add up the stats for any given year on untrained but otherwise permitted persons accidentally injuring or killing innocent people. Of all the things we have to worry about do you really think that is high up on the list of concerns ? So high up you are willing to sign away some more of your rights in a ( Futile ) effort to make it happen ?

The fact is that anyone, anywhere in this country at any given time is in the proximity of someone carrying a gun. And no small number of them are felons.
 
Bravo619 said:
That’s all great till you got a person with little or no training or experience with a weapon and he’s drawn up on the target just past you. Does anything matter then? There’s two sides to this story and both have a turn in them
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Can you provide me with factual examples or just supposition and conjecture ? Does this happen often ? Is it a serious problem ? I've been doing this for decades and it's never happened to me.
 
Bear007 said:
" ................................................... "
He also said he's not going to just go out and buy a gun, something he knows nothing about, to say he's got one either. He fully understands the responsibility of owning a gun. He may take the time to learn and get a handgun one day ... if he ever quits working his retirement away.
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Sounds like a responsible man with common sense....................... Just a suggestion here, but he may be the guy you could take under your wing when and if he does ever get one and help show him the training he needs.

Maybe even before he gets one, suggest to him that you would be willing to do that if the time comes.
 
jumpinjoe said:
Sounds like a responsible man with common sense....................... Just a suggestion here, but he may be the guy you could take under your wing when and if he does ever get one and help show him the training he needs.

Maybe even before he gets one, suggest to him that you would be willing to do that if the time comes.
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Already had that discussion with him about training. He already said he would take classes if he got a gun. Not worried about him, he'll study everything about it if he decides to proceed and when he doesn't understand something, he calls me and asks to meet.

I also already told him don't just buy any gun someone tells you to buy. 10 minutes from his house is a big indoor range with instructors, classes and dozens of the latest models guns to hold and/or rent to see what feels good, what fits his hand, his style and his strength.

If he ever does get any kind of gun he can hang with me at my outdoor range, I've only been there shooting 3 times this week, lol, and might be taking my daughter to a different range tomorrow to start her training. I have a couple of guns she can choose from to be her own but I won't give one to her unless she shows a certain amount of ability to handle it, takes time to learn about maintaining it and yes, demonstrates safety, safety, safety. I'll probably put her in a safety class if she gets that far because you now how little attention daughter's sometimes pay to their dads lol.
 
I'm originally from Baltimore, so I need no education on gun violence by criminals. I think those of you that think the Constitution gives everyone rights without laws which interpret those rights is smoking something. A person's rights are forfeited when they use them to take the rights (or life) of another.

I am pro-2A. I am not pro "everyone gets to carry a concealed weapon because they're a citizen." There are some stupid, vengeful, crazy abusive people in this country. Their rights to carry a concealed weapon should be restricted. Hate me if you want. I get your arguments, but I believe in laws to protect us and those weaker than us from bad guys. This isn't the old West.
 
Haroldg48 said:
I'm originally from Baltimore, so I need no education on gun violence by criminals. I think those of you that think the Constitution gives everyone rights without laws which interpret those rights is smoking something. A person's rights are forfeited when they use them to take the rights (or life) of another.

I am pro-2A. I am not pro "everyone gets to carry a concealed weapon because they're a citizen." There are some stupid, vengeful, crazy abusive people in this country. Their rights to carry a concealed weapon should be restricted. Hate me if you want. I get your arguments, but I believe in laws to protect us and those weaker than us from bad guys. This isn't the old West.
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Just have a couple questions and one assertion. Neither is to argue, simply to better understand your position.

1 - "I am pro-2A. I am not pro "everyone gets to carry a concealed weapon because they're a citizen."
That being your stand, how do we (society) determine those whose rights should be "restricted" unless and until they do something to "forfeit" them?

2 - "I think those of you that think the Constitution gives everyone rights without laws which interpret those rights is smoking something."
Do you or don't you recognize the constitution 'guarantees' our rights, and doesn't 'give' any of them to us?

3 - If you do believe the constitution 'guarantees' our inalienable rights and doesn't 'grant/give' them to us, then would you concede the constitution also guarantees our 'freedom' rather than our 'safety'?

BTW, welcome to the forum. I note you've been around for a few months ......... jump in more often and let us hear from you.

As an aside, I don't think anyone here would argue your assertion that "A person's rights are forfeited when they use them to take the rights (or life) of another." I'm pretty sure there's no one on this forum who would disagree with this.
I think it also goes without saying that this is also a valid point, "I believe in laws to protect us and those weaker than us from bad guys." however the two ..... 'rights' and 'laws to protect the weak' are not mutually inclusive.
 
Haroldg48 said:
I'm originally from Baltimore, so I need no education on gun violence by criminals. I think those of you that think the Constitution gives everyone rights without laws which interpret those rights is smoking something. A person's rights are forfeited when they use them to take the rights (or life) of another.

I am pro-2A. I am not pro "everyone gets to carry a concealed weapon because they're a citizen." There are some stupid, vengeful, crazy abusive people in this country. Their rights to carry a concealed weapon should be restricted. Hate me if you want. I get your arguments, but I believe in laws to protect us and those weaker than us from bad guys. This isn't the old West.
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The old west? Maybe look into some actual stats and facts about the old west rather than relying on TV. Baltimore is 1000s of times worse than the old west. Contrary to popular belief, most people didn't carry guns. Most of what you have ever seen on your TV about the old west is pure Hollywood fiction.

And I fail to see how being opposed to allowing the government to mandate some training class to have or carry a gun relates to someone forfeiting their rights when they use them to take the life or rights of another, which no one here has ever argued for. Furthermore, you might be pro 2A. First you would have to research the reason the framers included the 2A in the BOA and then decide. I have a feeling it wasn't for the reasons you think it was. If the government can arbitrarily remove your rights, they aren't rights. Joe Biden says he's pro 2A. I would argue that he and many others, probably including you, are pro YOUR IDEA of what the 2A means.

Here's a simple litmus test. Apply any of the restrictions on the 2A that you favor to the 5th, 10th or 13th amendment. Then ask yourself why the 2A is the only one it should be applied to. Spoiler alert, it isn't. It should be applied to none of them.
 
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