Net Engineer
Master Class
Just out of curiosity, if you bought one of these APC10's today for $2,650.00 as an investment, what would you expect to be able to sell it for in 10 years?
Some fanboy is gunna be out some money
- Thread starter TEXASforLIFE
- Start date
HansGruber
Ronin
Lots of 9mm PDW’s that run great out there; a few .45’s, as well… .40’s are there, but not as common.
There’s only a handful of 10mm’s, and most of those are not reliable.
HansGruber
Ronin
My HK94, which I bought for just under $2k (used) about 15 years ago, give or take, is north of $5k now…
Net Engineer
Master Class
The last 15 years, S&P 500 annualized inflation adjusted returns have been north of 10%, $5K @ 15 years on a $2K investment is around 6.3% annualized non inflation adjusted (I'm too lazy to go back and look at the inflation numbers over the last 15 years but it's possible the inflation adjusted return could actually be negative).
Of course you can't take an index fund out to the range and shoot targets with it or use it to defend yourself or your home, so there's that, but on the other hand I'd imagine the more you shoot it the larger the depreciation.
Bassbob
Emissary
OIC, so the market base is “Scary military types” with off body purpose made EDC bags and those that have the extra money lying around to spend $2,650.00 on a home defense gun? Seems perfectly practical, thank you for the clarification.
One of the things I love about American Market Capitalism; it produces products & services to fill every niche, no matter how tiny.
It's cute you think SMTs are a tiny , niche market base.
I wonder how those guys at HK or Benelli stay in business. All their guns are pretty expensive. The HK version of that B&T 9 is like 5k, if you can find one.
Net Engineer
Master Class
They're expensive precisely because it's a tiny niche market, generally speaking economies of scale translate to lower prices (i.e. the more you can produce with a given set of inputs the cheaper each unit becomes out to the marginal diminishing returns).
It's the same principle that makes a Rolex Watch 100x more expensive than a Timex.
Bassbob
Emissary
So they aren't superior ? All those reviews heaping praise on HK subguns, BT Subguns, Beretta and Benelli shotguns, I don't know, the Browning Citori, those are all just fanatical ravings by fan boys? I mean I've heard the P30L referred to as the handgun you take to the end of the world as we know it party. Damn. I wish I'd have known that. I could have saved my self a ton of money and just bought some Hi Points and 870s.
I have to clarify something. Regarding the 870s. They're not bad shotguns. I would have said Stoegers or Black Aces, but come on man, there is no way in hell I would ever buy that crap. I have limits. I'd sooner have my left arm surgically removed and replaced with an AA12. Which isn't that bad an idea actually.
Bassbob
Emissary
Speaking of which, this movie here somehow escaped my attention for the last 13 years until last night. Actually not that bad a movie. Maybe as good as the original.
Anyway, check out what Adrian Brody was carrying. Although he had nowhere near enough ammo strapped on him to make it look remotely realistic.
Anyway, check out what Adrian Brody was carrying. Although he had nowhere near enough ammo strapped on him to make it look remotely realistic.
Net Engineer
Master Class
Nobody said they aren't "superior", just that they are subject to the same laws of economics as every other product sold in the marketplace.
If they could build a x100 more units an hour using the same inputs, they'd be cheaper and they'd sell more of 'em, the "superiority" limits capacity and thus increases price which decreases demand until the point where market equilibrium between supply and demand is reached.
Contrary to popular perception prices aren't randomly chosen numbers.
Belt Fed
Ronin
I'm gonna say something about H&K that will not be popular, years ago the big deal was to have a H&K 91, 93 and 94. i jumped on that bandwagon and own five of them two full auto's and three semi's. i have pictures of them here somewhere.
Now the unpopular part, All this is just my opinion and everyone likes different things. and that's a good thing so different makes and model manufatures will always have a fan base for the guns they make. Now when i started shooting H&K some i realized i didn't care for them that much, number one the hump on the 91 hits my cheek pretty hard, the 93 not so bad, all of them have an overly complicated bolt system and i know it was supposed to be the wave of the future but to me it was a pain in the ass to disassemble.
Another minus is if you reload, H&K's are the brass destroyin guns ever made, they have fluted chambers that leaves marks on the brass and they have such a violent ejection that they dent the brass pretty good. They do make a buffer that stops most of the denting but not all. also you don't want to stand next to someone shooting one. the brass will hurt when it hits it throws it out so hard, now this will only apply to the 91 and 93.
I absolutely hate the cheap charging handle on one. i have seen a few of them break. and the receivers are stamped steel like an AK. after i bought and started shooting FAL,s Valmets and other rifles in the same category then the H&K's got put up for good.
Now here again this is just my opinion and it means nothing if you like H&K's. personally, for me i wouldn't trade any of my AR's, in both small and large platform for an H&K and if i did i know they would probably sell for more and it would get sold. So why do i still have mine if i don't care for them? well, guess i am a gun hoarder. lol
So i put my flame retardant suit on so fire away. I will say the MP5 is an easy controllable SMG and can be fired with one hand like a pistol, or i used to could when i was younger. lol
Now the unpopular part, All this is just my opinion and everyone likes different things. and that's a good thing so different makes and model manufatures will always have a fan base for the guns they make. Now when i started shooting H&K some i realized i didn't care for them that much, number one the hump on the 91 hits my cheek pretty hard, the 93 not so bad, all of them have an overly complicated bolt system and i know it was supposed to be the wave of the future but to me it was a pain in the ass to disassemble.
Another minus is if you reload, H&K's are the brass destroyin guns ever made, they have fluted chambers that leaves marks on the brass and they have such a violent ejection that they dent the brass pretty good. They do make a buffer that stops most of the denting but not all. also you don't want to stand next to someone shooting one. the brass will hurt when it hits it throws it out so hard, now this will only apply to the 91 and 93.
I absolutely hate the cheap charging handle on one. i have seen a few of them break. and the receivers are stamped steel like an AK. after i bought and started shooting FAL,s Valmets and other rifles in the same category then the H&K's got put up for good.
Now here again this is just my opinion and it means nothing if you like H&K's. personally, for me i wouldn't trade any of my AR's, in both small and large platform for an H&K and if i did i know they would probably sell for more and it would get sold. So why do i still have mine if i don't care for them? well, guess i am a gun hoarder. lol
So i put my flame retardant suit on so fire away. I will say the MP5 is an easy controllable SMG and can be fired with one hand like a pistol, or i used to could when i was younger. lol
TEXASforLIFE
SAINT
I have 2 vectors and an AR style in 10. The KV's are not as great as they could be and the recoil system is debatable on superiority! Does it less muzzle jump................not really! It doesn't matter what people pull off the web and quote or paste as not everything here is 100% factual! Take a high dollar company (your choice) and most likely someone else can build an equal or better firearm for 1/2 or less. I have built 50 or more AR's with low cost and some fairly high cost parts. I've learned which mistakes (nothing dangerous) not to do anymore. I thought I could just keep on building these guns forever and not get bored (not quite there, but getting closer) as you can only build so many in the same cartridge without gaining anything. I've moved on to BA's and the same will happen to me on "what's next". I don't build off Rem anything actions (clones possible only due to pattern, not actual built the same way), but do Savage 110's for good reason. Can I build a rifle in BA or AR that is accurate..................very much so and for less. Some will only buy "X" products cause they believe there's nothing that holds a candle to their products. Now it's hoping 1 can get a product that isn't lacking in quality as some companies sluff off (SA, s&w, RI, sig and many others) or was it "it worked fine before it left" excuse. Guns can be as picky as just a mag alone (1911 peeps know this). Most people don't like or want to be wrong and fight tooth and nail to prove they're right no matter how wrong they are (you know the internet is never wrong).
10mm Carbine: What Are Your Options? (2023)
The market isn't bristling with 10mm carbine options, but there are long-guns that pitch "Perfect 10" if you look. Find out what they are.gundigest.com
TEXASforLIFE
SAINT
@RandomHero this wasn't/isn't directed at you in post #71.
Keystone19250
SAINT
So not having a dog in this hunt I didn’t comment because frankly I have no interest in these high end firearms, for me it all comes down to what I budget my money for.
Can I afford one? Sure, I just spent close to $100 grand (cash) on a brand new F450 Lariat 4 wheel drive Dually truck and will be visiting the boat/RV show this weekend in Louisville to look for a RV “Not bragging” it’s just what I want to spend my hard earned money on.
That being said; when it comes to Firearms, buy what you want and fits your needs and lifestyle and can afford.
For me they have been Springfield Armory guns, will I ever say they are best guns made on the planet? Absolutely not, for me they just fit both my shooting style and budget and have run flawlessly.
Moving on.
Can I afford one? Sure, I just spent close to $100 grand (cash) on a brand new F450 Lariat 4 wheel drive Dually truck and will be visiting the boat/RV show this weekend in Louisville to look for a RV “Not bragging” it’s just what I want to spend my hard earned money on.
That being said; when it comes to Firearms, buy what you want and fits your needs and lifestyle and can afford.
For me they have been Springfield Armory guns, will I ever say they are best guns made on the planet? Absolutely not, for me they just fit both my shooting style and budget and have run flawlessly.
Moving on.
RandomHero
Custom
I agree with you a hundred percent. I have seen some builds that are by regular guys that are better than some production AR's for half the cost.
And yes, I agree, I have recently seen some fight tooth and nail like you have mentioned. Would be good for some to be open minded.
Thanks for the insight on the KV, I've handled them (never shot one) but thought they were a little too bulky for me, so I never picked one up.
RandomHero
Custom
I appreciate that.
Bassbob
Emissary
So we're full circle again. Buy the best gun you can afford and that fits your specific needs. Where have I heard that before ?
Clearly there is a certain amount of "Fan boi-ism" with some firearms. Some more so than others. HK being a prime example. Go to an HK forum and you're sure to meet a great number of complete D bags who will tell you you're a "Poor" because you bought a VP9. Anyway, there are SA fan boys, S&W fan boys, Benelli fan boys and on and on.
No one is saying that gun X is a "Bad" gun or a bad choice FOR YOU. The line gets blurred however when people start saying the gun they prefer ( for their own reasons, obviously one of them being affordability) is better than some other gun. Especially when incidents and failure rates for firearms manufactured by the company of their chosen weapon FAR outstrip those of the manufacturer of the weapon they claim is inferior.
No one is denying that some of these weapons are overpriced, but there IS an element of truth to the term "You get what you pay for".
Clearly there is a certain amount of "Fan boi-ism" with some firearms. Some more so than others. HK being a prime example. Go to an HK forum and you're sure to meet a great number of complete D bags who will tell you you're a "Poor" because you bought a VP9. Anyway, there are SA fan boys, S&W fan boys, Benelli fan boys and on and on.
No one is saying that gun X is a "Bad" gun or a bad choice FOR YOU. The line gets blurred however when people start saying the gun they prefer ( for their own reasons, obviously one of them being affordability) is better than some other gun. Especially when incidents and failure rates for firearms manufactured by the company of their chosen weapon FAR outstrip those of the manufacturer of the weapon they claim is inferior.
No one is denying that some of these weapons are overpriced, but there IS an element of truth to the term "You get what you pay for".
Last edited:
TEXASforLIFE
SAINT
A small amount of you get what you pay for is applied! Even at 1% is a great deal, but at who's percent!
Net Engineer
Master Class
“Overpriced” is relative, what might be overpriced to one is underpriced to another. If one believes the price asked is lower value than the item offered one will have a tendency to buy ( you’re getting the better end of the deal after all and thus are “wealthier” by taking the deal ) , if not one will generally pass. The value proposition is always relative and calculated by each individual using their own set of variables with their own weighting hierarchy.
To some brand name means much more than to others, some put the highest weight on perceived quality or utility, others might put the highest weighting on status or appearance.
It’s why some people will pay $2650 for that APC10 without thinking twice about it, while others won’t even consider it.
IMHO The hard part is usually getting past all the marketing hype to determine an honest valuation. Which is why recommendations from trustworthy sources are so valuable.
TEXASforLIFE
SAINT
Notice no Benelli has been brought up
! Might be fighting words
Let's bow our head for a moment of silence........................................................................................................................................
is click bait over now?
we buy what we want and some firearms don't get bought cause it's more than what 1 wants to pay for it...............simple enough
tier labeling gets me laughing
is that an excuse for.........................(fill in the blank)
so there is gun arguments from gun owners
the anti2a peeps are correct and we should lay down our pencils, keyboards and voice
BET7
Ronin
Well TFL, I don't have any B&T firearms to date, but have thought about their GHM9 and/or their APC9 or 9K. But this APC10 does pique my interest, as I do love me my 10mm firearms.Seeing what shot23 had this year (I wasn't there) new in 10mm is gunna get you spending some money................well maybe @BET7 anyways? B&T has a 10mm out in several options. I see his bank account starting to smolder. It also comes in lego's.....well sorta?
https://bt-usa.com/products/apc45-pro-copy/