The Uvalde Report

[HayesGreener]

It is interesting to note that the DPS is internally reviewing their own response to the incident

 

[10mmLife]

Good training has been available to law enforcement agencies for decades. Some of the best training in the country is available in Texas. What training the LE agencies availed themselves of I don't know.

An aspect of this incident that has not been fully examined is the dynamics of a police force that works for a school district. Education institutions are by their nature liberal. Many educators don't want police in schools and see them as a "necessary evil". This is typically reflected in their pay scales.

The incident response was commanded by a school police chief. When selecting a police chief, the school board is probably not going to opt for a SWAT trained door kicker, and the training and culture of the department will reflect this thinking. The school administration is focused on education, and security and law enforcement are often afterthoughts. You can see that in the staff's lackadaisical attitudes about physical security in the building. Training, and training budgets, will reflect that emphasis.

Given the fact that the police chief is a product of this system, I am not in the least bit surprised that he failed to implement a tactical solution early on. Bureaucratic inertia is standard procedure in the academic environment. It is a problem that LE agencies in schools have wrestled with for years.

Clearly the school police and other LE agencies involved had not exercised their response plans, such as they were, to clearly define lines of authority. I am disappointed that command was not assumed by one of the other responding agencies early on since the school police chief was impotent to handle incident command. Exercising critical incident response is crucial to identifying weaknesses in your response capabilities. In the final analysis, this was a failure of leadership at multiple levels.

Taking the authority away for a school to make its own decisions about security would be a good start. Putting law enforcement at the forefront of that security with the school staff being obedient to the law enforcements directions & training may make schools a harder target for these wack jobs that attempt to cause mass havok.

Politicians need to grow a pair and start supporting tougher security measures & training for law enforcement and give them the authority to do what needs to be done to shore up these soft targets and not allow the educational staff to weaken their defense because they are scared of seeing a scary firearm.

My elementary school had a regular officer on-site everyday and this was back in the 80's. All the kids new his name and respected him.

 

[billt]

I'm not so sure that "training" in itself, is what we should be looking at here with such a big magnifying glass. How much training did the citizen have who took out the Greenwood Mall, Indianapolis shooter actually have? I'm guessing it was very little to none.

And he bravely applied common sense, and responded very successfully. And saved many lives in the process. In a crowded shopping mall no less.

I'm not saying that police officers shouldn't be trained. But I think a person's inner character is far more important.

We have many highly educated people in all walks of life, who possess little to any common sense. They can screw up simple things with the best of them. Fortunately they rarely get people killed when they do. With police officers, that's not always the case.

We need to start looking in another direction BEFORE we hire these people. Because whatever "tests" they're giving cops these days, aren't weeding out the cowards.

 

[HayesGreener]

I'm not so sure that "training" in itself, is what we should be looking at here with such a big magnifying glass. How much training did the citizen have who took out the Greenwood Mall, Indianapolis shooter actually have? I'm guessing it was very little to none.

And he bravely applied common sense, and responded very successfully. And saved many lives in the process. In a crowded shopping mall no less.

I'm not saying that police officers shouldn't be trained. But I think a person's inner character is far more important.

We have many highly educated people in all walks of life, who possess little to any common sense. They can screw up simple things with the best of them. Fortunately they rarely get people killed when they do. With police officers, that's not always the case.

We need to start looking in another direction BEFORE we hire these people. Because whatever "tests" they're giving cops these days, aren't weeding out the cowards.

Yes. Recruitment, Selection, Training, and Discipline at all levels determine the quality of law enforcement service you get. Recruit and select the right people, train them up, enforce rules to ensure they are doing what is required. None of that can happen to the necessary degree without adequate funding for salaries, equipment, and training. Communities get precisely the quality of police service they deserve.

 

[Old_Me]

I doubt it matters. Not exactly sure how you would go about "training" the cowardice out of people? Perhaps by not allowing them to become police officers in the first place.

if i recall, reading LEO recruiting ads here, the requirements are, at least a 2 year degree, i believe in criminal justice

then a physical, then a psychological test.

that test "should weed out potential problematic people, but they too, maybe the only thing they check for is,
what does a cat do, meow, or moo"..??

 

[HayesGreener]

if i recall, reading LEO recruiting ads here, the requirements are, at least a 2 year degree, i believe in criminal justice

then a physical, then a psychological test.

that test "should weed out potential problematic people, but they too, maybe the only thing they check for is,
what does a cat do, meow, or moo"..??

Careful screening is important. But you never know how a recruit is going to react under the stress of the job. The field training program, and year of probation, should give ample opportunity to weed out the ones who cannot hack it. But some will get through if your screening and training programs are not robust.

 

[TidalWave]

I agree; they made serious mistakes.

That being said, however…they can’t be prosecuted or sued for it.

Hans is correct. There is considerable case law, I believe it’s referred to, supporting the idea that LEOs have no requirement to put their own lives deliberately at serious risk to save someone. Comes down to a judgment call on their part.
Let’s remember, the SHOOTER is the criminal. Libs can’t “blame the gun” and no one can “blame the cops”.

Seems to me there could be liability at the departmental level, however. It’d have to be based on reviews of policy and demonstrating how the situation turned into a clown show on LEs part and what they were fully in control of. I dunno.
Whatever happens, there’ll be a money grab…through the court sys…by somebody.

 

[HayesGreener]

Hans is correct. There is considerable case law, I believe it’s referred to, supporting the idea that LEOs have no requirement to put their own lives deliberately at serious risk to save someone. Comes down to a judgment call on their part.
Let’s remember, the SHOOTER is the criminal. Libs can’t “blame the gun” and no one can “blame the cops”.

Seems to me there could be liability at the departmental level, however. It’d have to be based on reviews of policy and demonstrating how the situation turned into a clown show on LEs part and what they were fully in control of. I dunno.
Whatever happens, there’ll be a money grab…through the court sys…by somebody.

I think the school district is wide open to lawsuit over the negligence in physical security.

 

[somorris]

I agree with you Hayes. I do not know whether or not it is indeed true, but I read that a teacher (or someone) had left a door open that was supposed to be locked. The school district is to blame for things like that, whether due to inadequate training of staff or just plain stupidity.

 

[jumpinjoe]

I doubt it matters. Not exactly sure how you would go about "training" the cowardice out of people? Perhaps by not allowing them to become police officers in the first place.

Remember, we had the same thing happen during the Stoneman Douglas High School shooting in Florida. There was a cop in that incident, (Scot Peterson), who refused to enter the building and confront the shooter.

Many kids died as a direct result. This appears to be developing into a pattern among law enforcement in these incidents. Also, when that happened the Sheriff of Broward County, Florida, Scott Israel, was suspended, and eventually fired for his incompetence, and lack of direct action and leadership during that incident.

If I remember correctly that sheriff was eventually reinstalled in his position and paid all back pay/benefits due to politics and political pressure. And IIRC, so was Peterson, the deputy who ran and hid.

 

[jumpinjoe]

It is my understanding that the children killed were already dead when the officers arrived. The tragedy is for those who were wounded.

Not to be argumentative here Hayes, and certainly not 2nd guessing, but how could anyone possibly know that for certain. And the argument that anyone thought it was a 'barricaded shooter' rather than 'active shooter' situation is suspect at best. I'm almost certain it was reported that there were kids calling 911 during much of the 77 +/- minute wait.

 

[HayesGreener]

Not to be argumentative here Hayes, and certainly not 2nd guessing, but how could anyone possibly know that for certain. And the argument that anyone thought it was a 'barricaded shooter' rather than 'active shooter' situation is suspect at best. I'm almost certain it was reported that there were kids calling 911 during much of the 77 +/- minute wait.

I am relying on the report conclusions for that info

 

[jumpinjoe]

I think the school district is wide open to lawsuit over the negligence in physical security.

Call me skeptical ...... but I expect any suit to be argued to exempt any board officials and to lay blame on the one teacher who apparently left the door either open or closed, but unlocked. Then a teacher's union will support that with arguments that the teacher was not a 'locksmith' and could not possibly have known the door didn't latch/lock when it was push closed. And even if the door had closed/latched completely, no one could say the lock didn't work correctly.

Far fetched ...... you would think. But I've seen far more asinine situations when/where politics and political associations rear their ugly heads.

I'm not in LE and my assumption is not coming from that POV. My POV is from a much closer involvement in the workings of a political school district.

 

[jumpinjoe]

I am relying on the report conclusions for that info

Absolutely..... but after all we've seen/heard so far makes it suspect whether even the final, final, report will answer all. Unfortunately there are so many covering for so many. And that assertion is not a slap at any LEO's, it's a slap at the politics that are and will continue to be played.

 

[billt]

If I remember correctly that sheriff was eventually reinstalled in his position and paid all back pay/benefits due to politics and political pressure. And IIRC, so was Peterson, the deputy who ran and hid.

He, (Scot Israel), wasn't reinstalled. He was given another position as Chief Of Police of Opa Locka, Florida. Which is ridiculous. He should have been kicked out of law enforcement for life.

 

[Old_Me]

He, (Scot Israel), wasn't reinstalled. He was given another position as Chief Of Police of Opa Locka, Florida. Which is ridiculous. He should have been kicked out of law enforcement for life.

frankly, none of those cops from (say a raw recruit) to the chief should ever be hired as a LEO ever again. i'd not trust ANY of them to guard a toxic waste dump, let alone a town, or city.

 

[Keystone19250]

Mike Glover retired Delta operator has broken down the video footage and reports from Uvalde and here is his take on what went down.

Although I watched the entire video this morning I wanted to give myself time to digest it before commenting.

Very well done almost minute by minute break down of the hallway video inside the school including things done very well, “not many” and professional (albeit) passionate when describing the multiple failures.
And there were multiple failures.

 

[10mmLife]

Although I watched the entire video this morning I wanted to give myself time to digest it before commenting.

Very well done almost minute by minute break down of the hallway video inside the school including things done very well, “not many” and professional (albeit) passionate when describing the multiple failures.
And there were multiple failures.

Definitely sad stuff especially considering there was a possibility to reduce the total amount of fatal casualties.

 

[10mmLife]

T

I agree with you Hayes. I do not know whether or not it is indeed true, but I read that a teacher (or someone) had left a door open that was supposed to be locked. The school district is to blame for things like that, whether due to inadequate training of staff or just plain stupidity.

The video link I provided in post #14 does an excellent job of breaking down the entire video with all the currently known facts. There is a part of the video that addresses the door.

 

[Talyn]

IMO, the take-home message is don't count on LE to get you out of a jam.

Especially, if you live in a rural area where response times are lengthy.