U.S. Appeals Court Strikes Down Bump Stock Band

[Net Engineer]

Been reading this thread, lots of good responses, my thought on this, these bump stocks SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN APPROVED for sale, like Han’s said, “It’s pure want, imho. Pure spray & pray, total crap accuracy…” Just my thoughts

They were "approved" by the ATF because there was no federal law that banned them for sale, that's the way it SHOULD ALWAYS work. The ATF is a department of the Executive Branch not a unilateral legislative entity and does not have the constitutional authority to arbitrarily decide what can and cannot be sold to the public.

The Legislative Branch writes and passes laws, the Executive Branch signs and then enforces those laws, the Judicial branch interprets those laws against the authority and protections dictated by the Constitution.

Unfortunately, we've had FAR too much of Congress abrogating its Constitutionally defined role by turning over vague authority to the Executive Branch and its byzantine bureaucratic labyrinth.

IMHO there is no logical or moral reason why these things should not have been "approved" for sale because in and of themselves they are not inherently dangerous.

 

[TacticalPirate]

Yep, I agree. And if ATF had allowed the sale of bump stocks they should have regulated the manufacture, sale, and ownership as they would with any other NFA item. From the beginning the stocks should have been serial numbered and like other NFA items, one would have had to submit the paper work and pay for the tax stamp. This would have been a win for those just itching to burn up new rifle barrels and the anti-gunners would have had the satisfaction knowing that bump stocks were regulated by the gov't. To me, this would have been a common sense approach. I agree with XDMAN this should have been handled through Congressional action.

That never would've been possible because the bump stock does not meet the written statute for what constitutes a machine gun according to either the NFA or the GCA, rate of fire is not regulated, only the trigger mechanism that accomplishes a rate of fire. Modern semi autos can outrun a number of older generation machine guns.

Secondly, thanks to the Hughes Amendment, no transferrable machine guns can be manufactured after May of 1986, meaning bump stocks would be relegated to the domain of an SOT making a post sample, and when you can make real machine guns you're not going to mess with poorly simulating one with a semi auto bump stock.

As for their legality, the ATF knew they weren't machine guns and left them alone until pressed to overreach by the Trump White House.

 

[TacticalPirate]

They were "approved" by the ATF because there was no federal law that banned them for sale, that's the way it SHOULD ALWAYS work. The ATF is a department of the Executive Branch not a unilateral legislative entity and does not have the constitutional authority to arbitrarily decide what can and cannot be sold to the public.

The Legislative Branch writes and passes laws, the Executive Branch signs and then enforces those laws, the Judicial branch interprets those laws against the authority and protections dictated by the Constitution.

Unfortunately, we've had FAR too much of Congress abrogating its Constitutionally defined role by turning over vague authority to the Executive Branch and its byzantine bureaucratic labyrinth.

IMHO there is no logical or moral reason why these things should not have been "approved" for sale because in and of themselves they are not inherently dangerous.

Not to mention you can bump fire absolutely any semi auto weapon, regardless of a stock.

 

[Area52]

The Bump Stock Ban was implemented by an executive order and not by Law. The Court just ruled on how it (Ban) was implemented, essentially bypassing Congress.
So the dance goes on.
The elected anti-gunners will commence another finger-pointing session as whether if the BS Ban/2A gets shelved as well as immigration amnesty may not find spots on the next agenda…so which laws will be brought up in the new 118th Congress remains to be seen.
We can only hope the overreaching will be stopped including arcane definitions by non-elected agencies.

 

[Belt Fed]

Hard for me to even imagine a gun owner wanting anything gun related banned now, especially the way things are with them wanting to take our 2A rights..

It's a good thing these liberals are buying guns now and helping the industry, but don't start trying to get everything banned that you don't like.

Also they will be the ones to bend over and give up their 2A rights easy. and ours too. give them NOTHING.

Shamefully these same people will be the first ones crying foul when they come for their 15 round handgun mags.

I'm not giving them a damn thing and i don't want anything banned.

I don't smoke or drink but i don't want your rights taken away cause i don't. That's the difference between the right and the left. anyone makes a statement that they don't think you should own it cause i don't is on the left.

I'm done with this.

 

[Net Engineer]

Hard for me to even imagine a gun owner wanting anything gun related banned now, especially the way things are with them wanting to take our 2A rights..

It's a good thing these liberals are buying guns now and helping the industry, but don't start trying to get everything banned that you don't like.

Also they will be the ones to bend over and give up their 2A rights easy. and ours too. give them NOTHING.

Shamefully these same people will be the first ones crying foul when they come for their 15 round handgun mags.

I'm not giving them a damn thing and i don't want anything banned.

I don't smoke or drink but i don't want your rights taken away cause i don't. That's the difference between the right and the left. anyone makes a statement that they don't think you should own it cause i don't is on the left.

I'm done with this.

Exactly and if any of my fellow Americans have any doubts about how this sort of creeping authoritarianism works, just look to our neighbors to the north in Canada. It’s quickly becoming a nation where everything is either banned or mandatory, you want to live under a regime like that? I certainly don’t.

Whenever it’s a question of individual liberty or state guarantees of “safety”, I come down on the liberty side EVERY SINGLE TIME, no matter how seemingly minor the trade-off.

 

[HayesGreener]

Legal issues aside, I have a personal aversion to the damn bumpstock. A few years ago one of my horses was struck by a stray round and eventually died from sepsis. A group of idiots were burning rounds with a bump stock on another property across the creek from me and she was hit with one of their rounds. I went over there and told them to stop and did not know at the time my horse had been shot but I saw their target area. Their rounds had been hitting from the ground to the tree limbs above.

I have been an instructor on a number of select fire weapons, and know of what I speak.

Anyone who has used automatic weapons knows how difficult it is to control muzzle climb. Ranges where you can do so are far and few between. Bumpstocks let any moron emulate an automatic weapon with a semi auto and I am against them. I think they were a device intended to circumvent the NFA and should never have been approved.

 

[Keystone19250]

No, Look it does not matter if you think this is garbage or not. The point is that a bureaucracy just can not change rules and make laws. If you want them banned then go through the proper process. Congress makes the the proposed laws, that is then ratified or vetoed by the President. Then that could be challenged by the judiciary. Just changing laws is not cool. That is the point of why this needs to be fought. What happens when they come after your hipowed sniper rifles (hunting bolt actions)? I mean who needs a rifle capable of shooting long distances?

This same changing of regulations and laws are currently happening with Braces, Pistols, 80% and 3d printing. It’s time to think bigger picture, not just what YOU think is practical.

We just went through this with shouldering vs not shouldering, it’s insanity.

Although I was born at night it wasn’t last night and I’m fully aware of how laws are made and who signs them into the books.
And yes they are garbage and that statement like my earlier statements are my opinion which I believe are ok to state on an open forum.

 

[Blackfeather]

U.S. Appeals Court Strikes Down Bump Stock Band​

You said Band

 

[Bassbob]

You said Band

Bassbob is going to start another band. We will be called the Bump Stock Band.

 

[TacticalPirate]

You said Band

Autocorrect probably tripped him up. But the ban lift surely was music to liberty cherishing ears.

 

[Net Engineer]

Bassbob is going to start another band. We will be called the Bump Stock Band.

Ladies & Gentleman, Please Welcome, The @Bassbob band…

 

[Blackfeather]

FRTs and bump stocks have a cool factor much like EVs, common sense dictates that nobody really needs them, but as long as enough people keep buying them - the manufacturers will keep profiting from making them.

 

[Recusant]

You said Band

And it took until post # 44 to recognize the typo? Sorry I didn't catch it before posting the thread, but I think everyone got the idea of what the article was about!

 

[rmc51]

So basically…..

If not used responsibly this device increases the rate of fire for no other purpose than to boost one’s ego? And waist ammunition and unfortunately if used by someone who is bent on creating carnage can do so more quickly?

Why???

Ban them and be done with this.

My opinion!!!!!!!

As I agree that I see little reason for bump stocks.

I also see little reason for a Lamborghini, Ferrari or similar cars like a turbo Porsche in this country. Many people have more money then brains, that is a scenario that this country deals with everyday.

We have people down here that can buy boats so large that they can not drive or dock them safely.
What do you do? Ban them????? I don't think so, Not in a free country!!!!!

 

[WellArmed]

I am surprised by the so called conservative gun owners who have a liberal mindset and are using liberal talking points....

They never should have had been approved in the first place!

Why shouldn't they have been? Just because  you don't like it and think it's stupid? Do you set the bar so low that anything and everything that someone deems "useless" and "pointless" should be banned? What legitimate reasons can you all come up with for why they should NOT have had been approved in the first place other than you personally don't see the point in them, so you think no one should be allowed to own one? I am all ears to hear more "feelings" based liberal talking points that aren't based in law or reality.

Just ban them all already and be done with it!

What legitimate reasons could you all possibly have to justify a ban by the ATF? There is absolutely NO federal law on the in which bumpstocks are/were illegal, yet we have gun owners STILL supporting the ATF's ban and overreach? The hell with the Constitution, separate branches, of government, and personal freedom. Lets just bypass all that because we "feel" it should be illegal. Who needs laws and Congress anyway, right?

There were hundreds of thousands legally sold, and you support making them all illegal and possible felons out of fellow gun owners who spent hundreds their hard earned money to purchased possible felons? Force to to destroy or turn them in without compensation? Why? Just because  you don't want one,  you personally don't see the point in owning one, and because out of the hundreds of thousands sold over the course of several years, ONLY ONLY man missed used it? How don't you like like and use the same logic that leftist and antigunners use?

 

[WellArmed]

FRTs and bump stocks have a cool factor much like EVs, common sense dictates that nobody really needs them, but as long as enough people keep buying them - the manufacturers will keep profiting from making them.

Common sense dictates nobody really needs video games, movie theaters, professional sports, plays, concerts, music, alcohol, junk food, cars and motorcycles that can travel over 100 mph, Nascar, the Olympics, and so forth (I could go on all day), but as long as they are still offered, people will keep spending.

Bump stocks have a use. The use was for recreational shooting, and stimulating full auto without having to pay 10 to 50 grand to do so. They are just as useful and serve the same purpose as all the other aforementioned activities, sports, and foods.

Oh and someone else mentioned bump stocks were "just a waste of ammo." So freaking what? If someone wants to spend their hard earned money to buy ammo that belongs to them and that they own, what business is it to anyone else and why do you even care about how they were legally using and "wasting" their own personal property? That's the problem with the world.

Everyone want to use laws and government to force their personal views about things that have nothing to do with then onto others. That is why I am a Libertarian and not a Republican or Democrat because the latter two are one in the same and think alike. They use the same flawed logic, rationale, and talking; the only difference is the subject and causes they apply it to.

 

[BreakingWind]

I, personally, see no benefit for a "fully automatic, or facsimile thereof", other than to spray lead. Military are trained with full autos, not civilians. Yes, we do have the 2nd Amendment, and if you can afford a full auto, then have at it.

Not to mention the cost of ammo. Spray and pray is right, with a full auto weapon its better to shoot in short bursts anyway in order to keep the barrel rise controllable. Without a lot of practice its hard to keep a full auto on target. Used to get a call from one of the Sergeants that worked in the Armory a couple of times a year to go to the range and get rid of thousands of rounds of ammo that was getting to their expiration date. His duty was to destroy it, but it didn't say HOW he had to destroy it. A couple of friends and I would show up and then it would sound like WWIlII for an hour or so. On the M-16s We would tape banana clips together butt to butt so that when you finished the first 30 you could flip it for the other 30. It took a hell of lot longer to load the clips then it did to shoot them off.
And you are absolutely correct short of a zombie apocalypse their is no need for a full auto weapon short of a collector piece for show...

 

[HansGruber]

Not to mention the cost of ammo. Spray and pray is right, with a full auto weapon its better to shoot in short bursts anyway in order to keep the barrel rise controllable. Without a lot of practice its hard to keep a full auto on target. Used to get a call from one of the Sergeants that worked in the Armory a couple of times a year to go to the range and get rid of thousands of rounds of ammo that was getting to their expiration date. His duty was to destroy it, but it didn't say HOW he had to destroy it. A couple of friends and I would show up and then it would sound like WWIlII for an hour or so. On the M-16s We would tape banana clips together butt to butt so that when you finished the first 30 you could flip it for the other 30. It took a hell of lot longer to load the clips then it did to shoot them off.
And you are absolutely correct short of a zombie apocalypse their is no need for a full auto weapon short of a collector piece for show...

M16’s don’t have clips…they have magazines.

You can use clips to load magazines, though.

 

[HayesGreener]

Bump stocks make your AR/AK in effect a machine gun, irrespective of the internal mechanics. Anyone who has been present when one is being fired knows that. Unlicensed machineguns have been illegal in this country for many years. Somebody found a way to circumvent the NFA with the device. ATF was asleep at the wheel when they were first permitted and they have created a mess.