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Ukraine Liberates Kherson

Update from The War Zone since the earlier posting.

Update: 5:00 PM EST

Polish government spokesperson Piotr Mueller now says that authorities in the country have taken various steps following the incident in Przewodów, the exact causes of which remain under investigation. The readiness of level of Poland's military has been raised and the country's top leadership is now considering whether or not to invoke NATO's Article 4, which had already been noted to be a distinct possibility.

Polish President Andrzej Duda is set to convene a meeting of Poland's National Security council tomorrow. He has already spoken with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg about the situation.

The U.S. State Department has also now said that the U.S. government is working to confirm various details about the incident in Poland. "The United States is certainly not trying to escalate or incite a situation at all," State Department spokesperson Vedant Patel said at a press conference today, adding that what happened was "incredibly concerning."

So far, Latvia appears to be the only NATO member to have made an official statement accusing Russia of being responsible. Slovakia's Defense Minister Jaroslav Nad' mentioned Russian missiles in a Tweet about the incident, but it is unclear if he is simply referring to the now extensive media reporting on the matter.

In a routine public address, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has now said it was Russian missiles that struck Poland today, but provided no further specific information regarding the incident, which he called a "very significant escalation."

Mykhailo Podolyak, a top adviser to Zelensky, has directly accused Russia of carrying out a deliberate strike on Poland "disguised as a 'mistake,'" but did not provide additional information to substantiate those claims.

At the same time, more circumstantial evidence has emerged that might point to an S-300 surface-to-air missile system, possibly one operated by Ukrainian forces, as being the culprit behind the incident in Przewodów. There is also the possibility that a Ukrainian surface-to-air missile inadvertently intercepted a Russian missile over Poland, and that the remains of one or both of those weapons then hit the farm. Unfortunately, right now, with the information available, it is simply too hard to say with any certainty.


Update: 6:45 PM EST
Poland's Foreign Ministry has now formally summoned the Russian Ambassador to the country to answer questions about the incident in Przewodów. An accompanying official statement from the ministry stops short of specifically blaming Russia, very carefully describing what landed on the farm as "a Russian-made missile" and mentions, but does not draw a direct link the missile barrage Ukraine was subjected to earlier in the day.

In a televised address to his country, Polish Prime Minister Morawiecki has also now appealed for calm and warned citizens to be wary of potential Russian propaganda and misinformation. "Chaos is Russia's weapon of choice," he added.

Furthermore, Morawiecki confirmed that NATO ambassadors will hold an emergency session tomorrow regarding this incident on the basis of the alliance's Article 4. The readiness of certain elements of the Polish military has already been raised, to include more significant monitoring of the country's airspace, the Prime Minister said.

Polish President Duda said in his own televised remarks that authorities in the country still have no definitive evidence about who fired the missile the hit Przewodów.

Separately, the White House has confirmed that President Joe Biden has now spoken to Polish President Duda and NATO Secretary General Stoltenberg about the incident. Biden has offered American assistance with the ongoing investigation.
 
HansGruber said:
www.npr.org

Poland says the missile strike on its land appears to be an accident by Ukraine

Two Polish citizens were killed when the missile struck in the eastern part of Poland, just a few miles from the border with Ukraine. Polish President Andrzej Duda calls it an "unfortunate accident."
www.npr.org www.npr.org

Ukrainian SA-300 SAM.

They still say ultimate responsibility is Russia’s, though—which, really, is correct.
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With all the missiles (~100) Russia fired that day & a key target 40 miles away lots of hardware is flying through the air.

A SAM loses guidance then goes ballistic and eventually comes down regardless of close-by borders.
 
HansGruber said:
Usually SAM’s self destruct after the engine burns out…but not surprised one didn’t.
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Russia has also been using S-300's in a surface-to-surface role.

The Ukrainian S-300's are old Soviet types, so things can go wrong in 30+ year old stuff.

Russia has stated that the closest target that they fired stuff at was 22 miles from the Polish border, so that's not far for an errant SAM to travel in a ballistic trajectory. S-300's are big missiles.
 
My response on this will definitely fluff a lot of members feathers, I don’t support there war, it has nothing to do with us, we have our own problems here and we shouldn’t be the worlds police especially with this current administration, now it it was a NATO country that’s a bit different, we have to support that, I do feel sorry for the people over there and that this war has happened, don’t get me wrong, I just think we should mind our own matters.
 
baldwin.jpg
 
Annihilator said:
My response on this will definitely fluff a lot of members feathers, I don’t support there war, it has nothing to do with us, we have our own problems here and we shouldn’t be the worlds police especially with this current administration, now it it was a NATO country that’s a bit different, we have to support that, I do feel sorry for the people over there and that this war has happened, don’t get me wrong, I just think we should mind our own matters.
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Please read the paragraph below and decide if history really does tend to repeat itself.

Among the causes of the French Revolution was the economic crisis that France was facing in 1789. Throughout the 1700’s France participated in a series of expensive wars, especially against Britain, its long-time rival. For example, during the American War of Independence against Britain, France allied itself with the United States and helped support the American war efforts. France’s support of the war was expensive and caused the country to push itself into bankruptcy. This action by Louis XVI proved costly, as his decision to assist in the war would eventually cause him to face a financial crisis in his own country. As France slipped into crisis, Louis XVI tried to solve the country’s financial woes by forcing increased tax rates on the citizens, including new taxes for the nobility. However, Louis XVI did not anticipate the consequences of this decision as the French nobility worked to block his plans and the third estate’s anger with the absolute monarchy of the king grew more intense. (https://www.historycrunch.com/causes-of-the-french-revolution.html#/)

I'm afraid the U.S. may also experience a financial crisis that will bankrupt the country. The cost of financing Ukraine's struggle on top of the huge spending bills passed by Congress may cause a collapse of our economy and drive us into a terrible depression. But I also have to wonder what price we will pay should Russia prevail.
 
Understood, still I don’t think we should or need to be the worlds police, Ukraine was once part of Russia, so let them settle it themselves, all the money that was given to Ukraine should have been used here to help with the homeless and fetanal crisis and help our vets, not somebody else’s war, just my thoughts
 
Recusant said:
Please read the paragraph below and decide if history really does tend to repeat itself.

Among the causes of the French Revolution was the economic crisis that France was facing in 1789. Throughout the 1700’s France participated in a series of expensive wars, especially against Britain, its long-time rival. For example, during the American War of Independence against Britain, France allied itself with the United States and helped support the American war efforts. France’s support of the war was expensive and caused the country to push itself into bankruptcy. This action by Louis XVI proved costly, as his decision to assist in the war would eventually cause him to face a financial crisis in his own country. As France slipped into crisis, Louis XVI tried to solve the country’s financial woes by forcing increased tax rates on the citizens, including new taxes for the nobility. However, Louis XVI did not anticipate the consequences of this decision as the French nobility worked to block his plans and the third estate’s anger with the absolute monarchy of the king grew more intense. (https://www.historycrunch.com/causes-of-the-french-revolution.html#/)

I'm afraid the U.S. may also experience a financial crisis that will bankrupt the country. The cost of financing Ukraine's struggle on top of the huge spending bills passed by Congress may cause a collapse of our economy and drive us into a terrible depression. But I also have to wonder what price we will pay should Russia prevail.
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That is the purpose for crashing our economy. To usher in their totalitarian socialist "utopia". If Russia were to get Ukraine, that is where he would stop. He is not stupid enough to try and start WWIII. Zelensky was screaming that those were Russian missiles, that Russia had escalated, and that the US and NATO needed to step in. We cannot afford another endless proxy war. If Putin wanted to attack Poland and others, he would have done so. I think even he knows his conventional military is no match for NATO. He wants Ukraine. Ukraine was part of the USSR. Personally, I think we are just prolonging the inevitable outcome. We cannot afford to fund this crap. I honestly don't believe Russia acquiring Ukraine is going to change the world landscape that much. China is the biggest threat. And we have the media and politicians who want to push us headlong into a possible direct conflict with Russia. The same thing they swore would happen if Trump became President, is exactly what they are trying to do now. But, I digress.
 
An expanding hot war in eastern Europe, that would likely also cause flare-ups in other parts of the globe, would be far more disastrous to the economy (both ours and the world's). Russia was never going to stop with just taking Ukraine. Putin made it very clear on previous occasions what his larger intentions were.

While it would certainly be convenient if these sorts of things happened at a time when everything was going very well in the U.S, we don't really get to pick the time or the place. The U.S. economy was in the dumpster when we finally decided we needed to wade into WWII, just for some historical context.

As for the fact that "Ukraine was once part of Russia," that's means little and is in the past. The majority of Ukrainians want to join the West, they want to become free Europeans. Claims that "many Ukrainians still consider themselves Russians" are greatly exaggerated, if not outright Russian propaganda. With the exception of a few puppet states, no former Soviet Union country wants to rejoin Russia - they have all shifted westward, culturally and economically. If Putin doesn't like it, that's his problem - he always had the option of being able to offer those former USSR countries something more appealing than the West was, but he didn't, because he can't.
 
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Russia's illegal annexation of Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula in 2014, was the first change of internationally recognized borders in Europe through military force since WWII, and a clear violation of the Budapest Memorandum of 1994. Had Obama, Biden and NATO stopped him then, we wouldn't be here today. Apparently, it wasn't that important then. Apparently Obama, Biden and NATO had no problem with this and did nothing. Russia had blatantly violated the Budapest Memorandum. And the initial response to the annexation of Crimea by the other signatories, the U.S and U.K was hesitant and restrained. And, as an added kick in the nuts, we have been funding Ukraine with military assistance since then, including lethal defensive arms. So, we responded inadequately and have inadequately armed them since then. And we wonder why Putin did this yet again. And we didn't have China supporting Russia in 2014.
 
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Recusant said:
Please read the paragraph below and decide if history really does tend to repeat itself.

Among the causes of the French Revolution was the economic crisis that France was facing in 1789. Throughout the 1700’s France participated in a series of expensive wars, especially against Britain, its long-time rival. For example, during the American War of Independence against Britain, France allied itself with the United States and helped support the American war efforts. France’s support of the war was expensive and caused the country to push itself into bankruptcy. This action by Louis XVI proved costly, as his decision to assist in the war would eventually cause him to face a financial crisis in his own country. As France slipped into crisis, Louis XVI tried to solve the country’s financial woes by forcing increased tax rates on the citizens, including new taxes for the nobility. However, Louis XVI did not anticipate the consequences of this decision as the French nobility worked to block his plans and the third estate’s anger with the absolute monarchy of the king grew more intense. (https://www.historycrunch.com/causes-of-the-french-revolution.html#/)

I'm afraid the U.S. may also experience a financial crisis that will bankrupt the country. The cost of financing Ukraine's struggle on top of the huge spending bills passed by Congress may cause a collapse of our economy and drive us into a terrible depression. But I also have to wonder what price we will pay should Russia prevail.
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70% of the US budget is entitlements.

In the last 2 years ~$3 trillion has been spent on more welfare programs & so-called green energy scams. Lest than 10-15% of all that is actually going to tangible infrastructure. The lame duck Congress will likely spend more in the next 1.5 months.

Supporting the Ukrainians isn't going to break the US economy since the majority of the aid is actually going back to US production of armaments from the new old stock that's been in storage, we've already sent them, like I explained earlier.

Eastern Ukraine has a lot of valuable minerals, and Putin wants that in addition to resurrecting the old USSR.

I'd rather have Ukrainians fight Russia than our troops.
 
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