10mm vs. .40: Was the FBI Wrong (or Right) About This?

[Honorman]

I’m just a lone opinion here but I am a long time enduser of these calibers and platforms they’re used in. I back my opinion with what some call “real world” experience, as well as extensive range time, for what that’s worth.
I have carried a 10mm for a number of years starting with the Bren Ten shortly after it was introduced. The Bren is now retired but Its caliber is still my EDC in the form of a Springfield XDm. It’s an excellent cartridge and platform. Over the years I have also fielded this caliber in the 1911 platform too, but, the 1911 is a post unto itself.
Bottom line is. These calibers and/or platforms, either work for you or they don't. I have never understood the arguments concerning the 10mm as I find no difference between it an a .45ACP. The .45 1911 being another platform that I have relied on over the years, a ParaOrdance P14 being my go-to. These calibers either work for one or they don't. They do so for any number of reasons but the #1 reason has to be one’s ability and comfort level with it. One can’t figure that out unless you actually shoot them to get that information.
Reading reviews is helpful but very opinionated and limiting and although correct in a factual general way, can not account for your own experience on a range with them!
The same applies to the .40SW an 9mm discussion and .. contentions.
When I carry a secondary platform or backup it’s a Springfield XD compact in .40. It works for me, it’s comfortable and 100% reliable and Does what I require of it each an ever time. That may not be what everyone is looking for, I can only be responsible for my opinion an that it.
The 9mm cartridge an platform has been a companion since I was issued one in SEA in 1970. The issue was a Browning Hi Power and I still have it, along with several other Belgiums an a couple of the variants collected over the years. In THIS shooters opinion it was the best John Browning design between it a the 1911, some will agree some not, doesn't matter,
I digress, The current HiPower of note is the Springfield SA35 which is by far the best evolution of the iconic Browning design to date, making modern changes for the better, while holding to its original concept and basic ergonomic design. As the original Belgium’s are now in the collector category I’ve acquired an SA35 for casual EDC, size an weight allow for easy and comfortable carry without greatly printing and changes in munition component design affords the 9mm a good standing in terminal ballistics for some generations to come.
The 9mm cartridge was designed for primarily one singular use and has past the test of time in conflicts, law enforcement, a personal protection since introduced in 1901. Upwards to 60% or so of all LE use the 9mm.
An important point to consider.
From this end user’s POV it’s a simple decision.
That decision requires that as much information be acquired as possible by the end user before acquiring a platform.
The most useful and reverent of this info that one can get is a side by side range evaluation of the reverent calibers being considered to get actual, real time, data and experience with each caliber,
IN YOUR HANDS,
Preferably in the platform you’re considering or at the very least the same barrel leant.
I would suggest that one pairs up the 10mm an .45ACP first and once a choice has been determined pair it up with one’s choice of .40 SW and see where that takes you.
I personally feel that the 9mm stands alone and should be considered in that light.
However, should you decide on the 10mm or .45 as your primary but find the .40 not quite to your liking for some reason. then a side by side of the .40 an 9mm might be helpful in clarifying which caliber an platform might suit you best.
There is no wrong answer(s) here!

A firearm and it’s chambered caliber is one of the most important an PERSONAL choices one may ever have to make and should be done only after some consideration as to what an where you might have to deploy it, having actually, physically had it in hand and if at all possible shot it (all platforms are NOT made the same and fo Not always ergonomically fit or are comfortable to shoot).
Reading about it is great information but can only be really determined on a personal level.

PetenAlaska, I too like the 10MM as I just started to carry it last year. I purchased the Sig P320 X10 which is a larger gun but I have always carried full size guns and prefer them. I find that this gun is quite manageable and it performs well. In my LEO career I carried 45 ACP 95% of the time while on duty and 9MM off duty. Now I’m told that most Officers are carrying 9MM for duty use now. The 45 was king during my years there but that has reversed. Those were the two calibers that my agency provided good defense ammo for. ( Fed. HST products) which performed excellent in the shootings Officers encountered. I see that the 10mm is gaining in popularity as many manufacturers are introducing them in their product line. That indicates to me that their is a demand for more offerings for the 10mm. You bring up valid points in your post as to personal choices. I think that what ever brand weapon you carry and in what caliber should be the one that the shooter performs the best with and provides the highest level of CONFIDENCE. To me there is nothing better than having a weapon that you absolutely can perform at high levels with. Ammo technology has greatly improved which also can help with deciding what you want to carry. More importantly, if your bullet placement is on the mark all of the calibers you mentioned should provide positive outcomes. Thanks for your post.

 

[Bemused Berserker]

I think the point of that sentence was “they both headspace off the mouth”, not they have the same headspace, but…I did a double take as well.

It was poorly worded.

Yeah, I stumble there too. The author's description could lead one to think they have the same case/chamber dimensions.

 

[Honorman]

10mm came BEFORE .40.

Perhaps the correct question is: was there ever an actual NEED for .40?

HansGruber, your point is valid. I can tell you that all during my LE career Police administrators always make concessions for when things go wrong. Unfortunately, the decisions they make rarely benefit the Officer on the street as they are so far removed from the reality of the job.

 

[Bemused Berserker]

I like the .40, and have no issue controlling the recoil in my Walther PPQ M2, but I carry a 9mm more months than I carry my .40, which I only carry when I can wear a coat or jacket.
I seriously considered buying a 10mm in a 1911 platform 2 years ago. What stopped me was I couldn't find ammo anywhere at any price at the time. No once fired or new brass either, so reloading was out.

 

[CNS100]

Great article! But the author omitted the obvious conclusion “Therefore .45 ACP rules. QED.”

 

[HayesGreener]

I was SWAT commander and firearms instructor at a PD in Florida when the FBI Miami shootout occurred. The incident was studied and analyzed 6 ways to Sunday in SWAT and training circles, and is still used in police firearms training today. I have read two books on the subject and heard numerous briefings over the years.

A critical moment in the shootout occurred when Agent Jerry Dove shot the primary aggressor with his 9mm S&W. Dove was a member of the HRT. Both subjects had already been wounded. Dove's 9mm silvertip stopped a fraction of an inch from the subject's aorta. Had it struck the aorta the fight would have been over. That is the moment where the ballistics argument launches. The wound from Dove's 9mm was not survivable according to the ME, but the subject still had fight left in him and he went on to kill Dove and another agent, and then attempt escape in an FBI car. Dove's pistol was disabled when struck by a round from the subject's rifle and he was killed trying to get his pistol running again. One agent's revolver jammed and couldn't be reloaded when he was struck in the hand and a piece of a finger lodged in the mechanism. One agent lost his revolver in the vehicle pursuit before the shooting started.

Both subjects were killed sitting in the car by another agent at point blank range using a .357 revolver.

The incident was a failure of tactics and leadership by FBI. They knew they were dealing with heavily armed killers, yet did not have their HRT involved. They really did not expect to see a robbery and essentially tripped over them doing an area surveillance, thus were not prepared for the confrontation. They were not outgunned-there were shotguns and rifles in possession of some of the agents but they were unable to get them into the fight in time. Only one long gun, a shotgun, was fired by a heroic agent, who ultimately killed both suspects with a revolver after he was severely wounded in the arm.

FBI botched the arrest. But trying to save face they were thrashing around looking for reasons it went bad, and decided to blame the caliber of ammo. That's it, they were "outgunned". Thus they went charging down the 10mm and ultimately the .40 caliber road, and took most of the LE profession with them.

All the agents involved in this incident were heroic, but poorly led and poorly organized for dealing with real desperadoes.

There were multiple points of failure. Had HRT been employed it would have ended differently. Had long guns been in the hands of more agents it might have ended differently. Had Dove's pistol not been disabled by a bullet or if he had a secondary weapon it might have ended differently. If the supervisory agent (who was killed) had not lost his glasses in the fight it might have ended differently, along with a multitude of other things that contributed to the disaster.

There is no doubt that the 10mm and .40 cal are ballistically superior to Jerry Dove's 9mm and the .38's used that day. And major improvements have been made to the 9mm round. But there is no substitute for good tactics and marksmanship, no matter what caliber you are using.

 

[Honorman]

I was SWAT commander and firearms instructor at a PD in Florida when the FBI Miami shootout occurred. The incident was studied and analyzed 6 ways to Sunday in SWAT and training circles, and is still used in police firearms training today. I have read two books on the subject and heard numerous briefings over the years.

A critical moment in the shootout occurred when Agent Jerry Dove shot the primary aggressor with his 9mm S&W. Dove was a member of the HRT. Both subjects had already been wounded. Dove's 9mm silvertip stopped a fraction of an inch from the subject's aorta. Had it struck the aorta the fight would have been over. That is the moment where the ballistics argument launches. The wound from Dove's 9mm was not survivable according to the ME, but the subject still had fight left in him and he went on to kill Dove and another agent, and then attempt escape in an FBI car. Dove's pistol was disabled when struck by a round from the subject's rifle and he was killed trying to get his pistol running again. One agent's revolver jammed and couldn't be reloaded when he was struck in the hand and a piece of a finger lodged in the mechanism. One agent lost his revolver in the vehicle pursuit before the shooting started.

Both subjects were killed sitting in the car by another agent at point blank range using a .357 revolver.

The incident was a failure of tactics and leadership by FBI. They knew they were dealing with heavily armed killers, yet did not have their HRT involved. They really did not expect to see a robbery and essentially tripped over them doing an area surveillance, thus were not prepared for the confrontation. They were not outgunned-there were shotguns and rifles in possession of some of the agents but they were unable to get them into the fight in time. Only one long gun, a shotgun, was fired by a heroic agent, who ultimately killed both suspects with a revolver after he was severely wounded in the arm.

FBI botched the arrest. But trying to save face they were thrashing around looking for reasons it went bad, and decided to blame the caliber of ammo. That's it, they were "outgunned". Thus they went charging down the 10mm and ultimately the .40 caliber road, and took most of the LE profession with them.

All the agents involved in this incident were heroic, but poorly led and poorly organized for dealing with real desperadoes.

There were multiple points of failure. Had HRT been employed it would have ended differently. Had long guns been in the hands of more agents it might have ended differently. Had Dove's pistol not been disabled by a bullet or if he had a secondary weapon it might have ended differently. If the supervisory agent (who was killed) had not lost his glasses in the fight it might have ended differently, along with a multitude of other things that contributed to the disaster.

There is no doubt that the 10mm and .40 cal are ballistically superior to Jerry Dove's 9mm and the .38's used that day. And major improvements have been made to the 9mm round. But there is no substitute for good tactics and marksmanship, no matter what caliber you are using.

You are spot on brother, thanks for that post

 

[HansGruber]

I was SWAT commander and firearms instructor at a PD in Florida when the FBI Miami shootout occurred. The incident was studied and analyzed 6 ways to Sunday in SWAT and training circles, and is still used in police firearms training today. I have read two books on the subject and heard numerous briefings over the years.

A critical moment in the shootout occurred when Agent Jerry Dove shot the primary aggressor with his 9mm S&W. Dove was a member of the HRT. Both subjects had already been wounded. Dove's 9mm silvertip stopped a fraction of an inch from the subject's aorta. Had it struck the aorta the fight would have been over. That is the moment where the ballistics argument launches. The wound from Dove's 9mm was not survivable according to the ME, but the subject still had fight left in him and he went on to kill Dove and another agent, and then attempt escape in an FBI car. Dove's pistol was disabled when struck by a round from the subject's rifle and he was killed trying to get his pistol running again. One agent's revolver jammed and couldn't be reloaded when he was struck in the hand and a piece of a finger lodged in the mechanism. One agent lost his revolver in the vehicle pursuit before the shooting started.

Both subjects were killed sitting in the car by another agent at point blank range using a .357 revolver.

The incident was a failure of tactics and leadership by FBI. They knew they were dealing with heavily armed killers, yet did not have their HRT involved. They really did not expect to see a robbery and essentially tripped over them doing an area surveillance, thus were not prepared for the confrontation. They were not outgunned-there were shotguns and rifles in possession of some of the agents but they were unable to get them into the fight in time. Only one long gun, a shotgun, was fired by a heroic agent, who ultimately killed both suspects with a revolver after he was severely wounded in the arm.

FBI botched the arrest. But trying to save face they were thrashing around looking for reasons it went bad, and decided to blame the caliber of ammo. That's it, they were "outgunned". Thus they went charging down the 10mm and ultimately the .40 caliber road, and took most of the LE profession with them.

All the agents involved in this incident were heroic, but poorly led and poorly organized for dealing with real desperadoes.

There were multiple points of failure. Had HRT been employed it would have ended differently. Had long guns been in the hands of more agents it might have ended differently. Had Dove's pistol not been disabled by a bullet or if he had a secondary weapon it might have ended differently. If the supervisory agent (who was killed) had not lost his glasses in the fight it might have ended differently, along with a multitude of other things that contributed to the disaster.

There is no doubt that the 10mm and .40 cal are ballistically superior to Jerry Dove's 9mm and the .38's used that day. And major improvements have been made to the 9mm round. But there is no substitute for good tactics and marksmanship, no matter what caliber you are using.

Well said.

I would add to that: Dove’s 115gr Silvertip performed exactly as designed; it expanded robustly, but had fairly (by modern standards) shallow penetration…that bullet didn’t fail at all.

As you said—it was a complete tactical failure.

 

[PeteinAlaska]

PetenAlaska, I too like the 10MM as I just started to carry it last year. I purchased the Sig P320 X10 which is a larger gun but I have always carried full size guns and prefer them. I find that this gun is quite manageable and it performs well. In my LEO career I carried 45 ACP 95% of the time while on duty and 9MM off duty. Now I’m told that most Officers are carrying 9MM for duty use now. The 45 was king during my years there but that has reversed. Those were the two calibers that my agency provided good defense ammo for. ( Fed. HST products) which performed excellent in the shootings Officers encountered. I see that the 10mm is gaining in popularity as many manufacturers are introducing them in their product line. That indicates to me that their is a demand for more offerings for the 10mm. You bring up valid points in your post as to personal choices. I think that what ever brand weapon you carry and in what caliber should be the one that the shooter performs the best with and provides the highest level of CONFIDENCE. To me there is nothing better than having a weapon that you absolutely can perform at high levels with. Ammo technology has greatly improved which also can help with deciding what you want to carry. More importantly, if your bullet placement is on the mark all of the calibers you mentioned should provide positive outcomes. Thanks for your post.

Thank you for taking the time to respond!
If I may ask, what 1911 platform did you prefer?
Like yourself I prefer the full size frame, an don’t have an issue with all metal/weight. I still carry my ParaOrdance P15 from time to time.
I started shooting, and a small collection, when I was younger and hadn’t bought a new one in some years until I ran across a RIA Tac 10mm single stack that has been one of the nicest out of the box platforms I’ve had the pleasure of buying. It’s my fishing pistol, carried in a chest rig a replaced my old Blackhawk in .41 mag. Have a .454 Casull, gift from my sons, but it’s more than I want to manage now!
My Dad, a tank commander An 98 now, gave me his 1911 from WW2 that he carried in Africa, D-Day and through the end of that conflict. Kind of a crown jewel in the collection.

 

[fordag]

The agents quickly learned that their firepower was outmatched by that of the criminals, who had long guns as well as handguns and had trained intensively for a fight like that.

This to me was the greatest failing of the 1986 Miami shootout. The FBI agents at the time simply did not train for an actual gun fight. They were not prepared for the encounter with Platt & Matix.

Two agents lost their primary sidearms before the gunfight even started. Leaving one with a backup S&W Mod 36, the other never fired a shot, having lost his gun. One agent lost his glasses is is believed to have been combat ineffective due to his poor eyesight.

Plat was shot 8 times. Shots 1-6 hit either his arms or legs/feet, regardless of where they finally ended up. The 7th round fragmented on the car and a small fragment of it hit Platt's scalp. The final round, fired at point blank range, hit his chest and ended in his spine.

More than guns or cartridge selection, the main failing in the Miami Shootout was a failure on the part of the FBI to properly train their agents for a fight.

 

[fordag]

One agent's revolver jammed and couldn't be reloaded when he was struck in the hand and a piece of a finger lodged in the mechanism.

That's one jam they never teach you how to clear in any firearms class.

 

[PeteinAlaska]

Well said.

I would add to that: Dove’s 115gr Silvertip performed exactly as designed; it expanded robustly, but had fairly (by modern standards) shallow penetration…that bullet didn’t fail at all.

As you said—it was a complete tactical failure.

I’d like to add my thanks for your on-site too. I have read up on that day and LE training is not the only place that this incident is still studied and discussed. It’s a pleasure to have an LE POV an reality check.

 

[HansGruber]

I’d like to add my thanks for your on-site too. I have read up on that day and LE training is not the only place that this incident is still studied and discussed. It’s a pleasure to have an LE POV an reality check.

Wasn’t there, not LE…just read up on it.

 

[Honorman]

Thank you for taking the time to respond!
If I may ask, what 1911 platform did you prefer?
Like yourself I prefer the full size frame, an don’t have an issue with all metal/weight. I still carry my ParaOrdance P15 from time to time.
I started shooting, and a small collection, when I was younger and hadn’t bought a new one in some years until I ran across a RIA Tac 10mm single stack that has been one of the nicest out of the box platforms I’ve had the pleasure of buying. It’s my fishing pistol, carried in a chest rig a replaced my old Blackhawk in .41 mag. Have a .454 Casull, gift from my sons, but it’s more than I want to manage now!
My Dad, a tank commander An 98 now, gave me his 1911 from WW2 that he carried in Africa, D-Day and through the end of that conflict. Kind of a crown jewel in the collection.

Yes Sir, For duty I carried primarily a Les Baer Thunder Ranch, Nighthawk Global Response Pistol and the Springfield Marine Corps Operator. BTW I would love to hear about your dads experiences. I thank him for his service as well.

 

[PeteinAlaska]

Yes Sir, For duty I carried primarily a Les Baer Thunder Ranch, Nighthawk Global Response Pistol and the Springfield Marine Corps Operator. BTW I would love to hear about your dads experiences. I thank him for his service as well.

He was a tank commander, was one of only two amphibious (DD) tanks to make it ashore on Omaha from the 741st Tank Battalion that morning, they were joined by three other from a damaged LCT. As I understand it his and one other survived the beach and remained operational to the breakout that afternoon. On the 60th anniversary of D-Day he and I took three and a half weeks an started at his dispersal point in England then followed his journal all the way thru Europe until the end of the war. Was quite a trip, lots of stories. He told me things he had never spoken of before. Was very emotional and also the closing of several circles for him too I believe. Where ever we stoped on the journey people who were just kids then or near his age would ask him if he had been an American soldier then would sit a tell him there memories of that time. One man went a got his father who remembered when the armored spearhead, tanks and infantry, liberated their village. It was very emotional. He’s 98 now, still hunts a fish’s, drives a pilots his own plane, was a teacher at Northwestern University till last year when we talked him into stopping. He remains very busy, travels, gardens, takes care of his house (although I took his extension ladders away so he can’t get to the roof sn gutters any more!) he is an inspiration to all who know him, his great-grand kids will have good memories of him. I am in his debt. He beat the odds so many times as to be legend. His main hobby is with five of his long time friends. They have been restoring WW2 aircraft for about 55 years now. Keeps them busy an out of trouble!

 

[Daniel Watters]

Good grief. The author is an ignorant twit.

Again with “The FBI went away from 10mm to .40 because of recoil”…utterly false.

The 180gr, 950fps HydraShok 10mm “FBI load” has THE EXACT SAME BALLISTICS as the 180gr, 950fps .40 load they went to…if anything, the Glock 23, being LIGHTER than the 1076, would have MORE recoil.

Moreover, the 10mm Mid-Velocity loading was selected by the FBI months before they even solicted a 10mm pistol. The adoption of the S&W Model 1076 came nearly a year after they first selected the "Fed Lite" load. Ironically, the public announcement of the Model 1076's adoption was upstaged about a week later by Winchester and S&W's official introduction of the .40 S&W.

The Model 1076 was dropped mostly because of quality control issues. A handful of pistols literally locked up after administrative loading with their slide, hammer, and trigger unable to move. The pistols had barely been issued when the Firearms Training Unit recalled the whole lot, and shipped them back to S&W. It took S&W forever to come up with a fix, and by that point, the FTU had washed their hands of it.

However, the FTU also wanted little to do with the new .40 S&W cartridge either. It took until around 1994 before the FTU approved a .40 S&W load for use with personally owned pistols, and that was originally a mid-velocity load using a 165gr projectile. The adoption of the Glock 22 and 23 for general issue took a few more years after that.

You might ask what the FBI used in between the 10mm S&W 1076 and the .40 Glocks. When the 1076 were first pulled, the FTU placed an emergency order for a batch of 9mm SIG-Suaer P226, and then started piggy-backing orders for the 9mm P228 from the DEA's contract.

 

[Honorman]

He was a tank commander, was one of only two amphibious (DD) tanks to make it ashore on Omaha from the 741st Tank Battalion that morning, they were joined by three other from a damaged LCT. As I understand it his and one other survived the beach and remained operational to the breakout that afternoon. On the 60th anniversary of D-Day he and I took three and a half weeks an started at his dispersal point in England then followed his journal all the way thru Europe until the end of the war. Was quite a trip, lots of stories. He told me things he had never spoken of before. Was very emotional and also the closing of several circles for him too I believe. Where ever we stoped on the journey people who were just kids then or near his age would ask him if he had been an American soldier then would sit a tell him there memories of that time. One man went a got his father who remembered when the armored spearhead, tanks and infantry, liberated their village. It was very emotional. He’s 98 now, still hunts a fish’s, drives a pilots his own plane, was a teacher at Northwestern University till last year when we talked him into stopping. He remains very busy, travels, gardens, takes care of his house (although I took his extension ladders away so he can’t get to the roof sn gutters any more!) he is an inspiration to all who know him, his great-grand kids will have good memories of him. I am in his debt. He beat the odds so many times as to be legend. His main hobby is with five of his long time friends. They have been restoring WW2 aircraft for about 55 years now. Keeps them busy an out of trouble!

That is awesome and I’m glad he was able to experience all that super nice. My best to all of you

 

[MN.Militia]

Good grief. The author is an ignorant twit.

Again with “The FBI went away from 10mm to .40 because of recoil”…utterly false.

The 180gr, 950fps HydraShok 10mm “FBI load” has THE EXACT SAME BALLISTICS as the 180gr, 950fps .40 load they went to…if anything, the Glock 23, being LIGHTER than the 1076, would have MORE recoil.

I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall that during my youthful LE days, the scuttlebutt was that the FBI switched to .40S&W because of the female agents' inability to handle 10MM. I don't recall if it was a matter of ergonomics or cartridge load, just that the wammens whined about it being "too much".

Maybe the reasons were distorted in the retelling of the why, Chinese-telephone-style.

 

[Bassbob]

I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall that during my youthful LE days, the scuttlebutt was that the FBI switched to .40S&W because of the female agents' inability to handle 10MM. I don't recall if it was a matter of ergonomics or cartridge load, just that the wammens whined about it being "too much".

Maybe the reasons were distorted in the retelling of the why, Chinese-telephone-style.

I heard that's why they switched to 9mm.

 

[MN.Militia]

Agree 100%
For all intents and purposes its a .357 automag

I'd like to get a real Automag. Not the original one that was featured in the Dirty Harry movie; that one had enough problems I would never have one for self-defense. The newer ones in .44AMP are reliable but let's face it, this is a safe queen that you wouldn't EDC because of the $4k price tag. The next contender is the Deagle, which had its own growing pains but was a functional Israeli military product before being made in the USA. It too is a bit pricey, but nowhere near the Automag. So that leaves the 10MM as an easily affordable magnum semiauto pistol. I look to get the Ronin and the XDM Elite 10MM's.