10mm vs. .40: Was the FBI Wrong (or Right) About This?

[Bapanator]

I was a field firearms instructor for the FBI. I was among the first FBI Agents issued the 1076 when I went to Quantico to train and familiarize with it so I would be able to train and transition field agents to use the new handgun.

The original 10mm load was quite a handful, but manageable to an experienced shooter. However, the 1076 was big and heavy; not the ideal gun for concealed carry.

One has to understand that in all agencies, we have to adapt to the "average" user. In introducing the 10mm, the FBI found its recoil too much for most Agents, thus went to the tamed-down load for the 10mm.

As an aside, I went from the .38 revolver to the .40 Glock 27 about 1994. I carried the G27 for the rest of my career and into retirement and had no problems with the recoil, even in the "baby" Glock size. However, now being in my 70's, I've had to recognize my decreasing physical abilities. Last year, I found that, despite regular moderate strength training, due to arthritis of my hands and wrists, I was experiencing malfunctions shooting weak hand only. "A man's got to know his limitations," so I went with the G26 and haven't had any malfuntions.

Bottom line in my humble opinion is that the 10mm is a good manstopper, but the shooter has to be able to hit the man in order to stop him.

 

[Bemused Berserker]

I like my Walther PPQ M2 in .40 S&W. I don't find it too "snappy" in that pistol (full size), but I've not shot but 1 or 2 other mfgs. 40's, so I make no claim of expertise.
Almost 2 years back, I looked very seriously at a 1911 platform in 10mm. When I started checking for Ammo availability, and couldn't find any ammo anywhere (except at ridiculously high prices like $75 for a box of 50 Target loads). No new or once fired brass either. I backed away from buying that gun. Now that McSniffy's economy is thoroughly in the crapper, buying any new gun is outside my retiree's budget.
One of these days if we get that Demented Despot out of office, maybe I can try again.
I do agree that the FBI's problem was one of their own making, and no doubt they didn't spend a lot of time learning how to handle the 10mm. I've fired a few 10's buddies own, and frankly didn't find it that much of a handful.

 

[Hank440]

The FBI tried to solve a software problem with hardware using taxpayers money.

 

[MN.Militia]

A “40mm” what? Exactly….?

Noob tube, a.k.a. M203 launcher.

 

[MN.Militia]

I heard that story too. Somehow it just dosn't seem to jive.
Over the years I’ve taken a number of women out to the range an introduced them to pistols.
Nearly to a woman their comments followed this general format…
”Well the .22 was fun, and I liked the 9mm, the .40 was ok, BUT, I think I REALLY want to get a .45 or even better that 10mm!! They were AWSOME!”
So unless the FBI was hiring very Tiny women, with very small hands, little strength, a very whiney attitude, and a pea under the mattress disposition … my guess is that this idea/story that “the 10mm is to much gun for our little women agents” is just a BS Urban Ledgend!

I have met Female FBI field agents on two occasions and was never given the impression that they were in any way shape or form a princess wallflower!

I would hope so! And to hear them talk about The Great Caliber Debate, it is apparent that SIZE DOES MATTER!

 

[3L120]

This to me was the greatest failing of the 1986 Miami shootout. The FBI agents at the time simply did not train for an actual gun fight. They were not prepared for the encounter with Platt & Matix.

Two agents lost their primary sidearms before the gunfight even started. Leaving one with a backup S&W Mod 36, the other never fired a shot, having lost his gun. One agent lost his glasses is is believed to have been combat ineffective due to his poor eyesight.

Plat was shot 8 times. Shots 1-6 hit either his arms or legs/feet, regardless of where they finally ended up. The 7th round fragmented on the car and a small fragment of it hit Platt's scalp. The final round, fired at point blank range, hit his chest and ended in his spine.

More than guns or cartridge selection, the main failing in the Miami Shootout was a failure on the part of the FBI to properly train their agents for a fight.

The FBI thought of themselves as street cops, although they were far from that. one man cars following the bad guys like a tail. They didn’t want the local PD in on it because the FBI loves glory and a successful capture of the perps would have been just that. Any cop worth his salt would have seen their tactics as a recipe for disaster. 3L120 retired sergeant LAPD.

 

[3L120]

Good grief. The author is an ignorant twit.

Again with “The FBI went away from 10mm to .40 because of recoil”…utterly false.

The 180gr, 950fps HydraShok 10mm “FBI load” has THE EXACT SAME BALLISTICS as the 180gr, 950fps .40 load they went to…if anything, the Glock 23, being LIGHTER than the 1076, would have MORE recoil.

I would disagree. Talks with FBI agents. Their smaller, I.e. female, agents had difficulty with the pistol/round. In the military the same was true. Male soldiers carried .45s in the MOs. Females were authorized .38s. Ergo, the .40.

 

[HansGruber]

I would disagree. Talks with FBI agents. Their smaller, I.e. female, agents had difficulty with the pistol/round. In the military the same was true. Male soldiers carried .45s in the MOs. Females were authorized .38s. Ergo, the .40.

That is demonstrably false.

Only one agent—who had particularly small hands—had problems with the 1076 due to trigger reach; it was fixed by going to a DAO 1086.

This comes from an article (I’ll link if I can find it) by one of the agents in charge of training.

Stop spreading ignorant myths.

 

[HayesGreener]

The FBI thought of themselves as street cops, although they were far from that. one man cars following the bad guys like a tail. They didn’t want the local PD in on it because the FBI loves glory and a successful capture of the perps would have been just that. Any cop worth his salt would have seen their tactics as a recipe for disaster. 3L120 retired sergeant LAPD.

Agreed. I was a SWAT commander at a department in Florida when it happened and we followed it closely. FBI leadership botched it but instead of owning up to it blamed the caliber. One agent with a shotgun and an unauthorized .357 stopped it. Jerry Dove's 9mm round was a fatal hit but came a fraction of an inch from penetrating enough to stop the primary aggressor DRT. FBI had plenty firepower at the scene to stop it but didn't have their crap together enough to properly employ it. They should have had HRT on that surveillance from the start. S&W tried selling us on 10mm after FBI went down that road but we understood what really went wrong and it was not the gun. The 10mm for LEO's and .40 cal followon were folly.

 

[3L120]

That is demonstrably false.

Only one agent—who had particularly small hands—had problems with the 1076 due to trigger reach; it was fixed by going to a DAO 1086.

This comes from an article (I’ll link if I can find it) by one of the agents in charge of training.

Stop spreading ignorant myths.

Sorry Hans…I can only speak of what I know. Guess I have not drunk from the fount of all true knowledge.

 

[vjb.knife1]

I have heard many stories about why the FBI changed cartridges and they all are stupid in their logic. It does not matter whether the FBI was wrong or right because they are wussies and they are run by idiotic politicians. So, I never cared what they use.

I have been shooting the 10mm and 40S&W for many years and I like both. They are each fun to shoot and manageable. I currently shoot a SA XDME in 10mm with 16 rounds it is a formidable weapon. In .40 S&W I have a full size SA XD and an H&K USP, both of which are very fine shooters.

 

[HayesGreener]

I have heard many stories about why the FBI changed cartridges and they all are stupid in their logic. It does not matter whether the FBI was wrong or right because they are wussies and they are run by idiotic politicians. So, I never cared what they use.

I have been shooting the 10mm and 40S&W for many years and I like both. They are each fun to shoot and manageable. I currently shoot a SA XDME in 10mm with 16 rounds it is a formidable weapon. In .40 S&W I have a full size SA XD and an H&K USP, both of which are very fine shooters.

You are entitled to your opinion but your characterization of FBI agents in general is overly harsh. I think many in FBI leadership in D.C. have become political hacks, but in my experience agents in the field are committed professionals trying to do their best. BTW, we have a few active or retired agents here on the forum who are in the know on this topic.

 

[3L120]

Many of the FBI agents are upset by the crap the upper echelon is pulling. ( I have an FBI agent as a neighbor.). Being retired Army MP, In the olden days the male MPs carried 45s. The female MPs carried S&W Model 10s. Think the same problem exists with the Feds. While the male agents could handle the 10mm, the ladies could not. To prevent any evidence of sexual bias, they ended up with the .40. Whether the 10mm was necessary is another question. The majority of 5he FBI agents are accountants and attorneys. Few are really street capable, ala the Miami shootout. They are taught they are “supermen” who are bulletproof,unfortunately that doesn’t work in real life. Speaking as a cop who worked 23 years on the mean streets of L.A., the agents Zi had dealing with had no street smarts.

 

[Hammer67]

Honestly, I'm not sure why we really even care any more why the FBI made the decision they did decades ago (except as a historical point of interest). It has zero bearing on the here and now, and on whether or not to carry/shoot 10mm in the year 2023.

 

[Jester560]

I don't care one way or the other about the FBI. I'm just glad the 10mm was developed as it is my favorite caliber.

 

[The Night Rider]

Is the FBI ever not wrong?

 

[The Night Rider]

The author lost all credibility with me when I read "When it comes to Handgun Stopping Power....."


"Is it true that many shooters are opting for the 10mm round over the .40?"

How would you quantify "Many" ?

I looked for information on Dan Abram and couldn't find anything. The article reads like advertising copy for Springfield Armory.

 

[vjb.knife1]

You are entitled to your opinion but your characterization of FBI agents in general is overly harsh. I think many in FBI leadership in D.C. have become political hacks, but in my experience agents in the field are committed professionals trying to do their best. BTW, we have a few active or retired agents here on the forum who are in the know on this topic.

I realize that most of the decisions concerning this issue were made by the elite directors and done for political reasons. Alright, I will agree with you there for the most part, but one of the stories the I heard about this issue was the one told after your post about some agents complaining about the heavy recoil of the 10mm and the larger grip size of the pistol and that is where my opinion came from. And then they still complained about the recoil when the change was made to .40S&W. That is why I voiced the opinion that I did. I am sure that there are many committed professionals in the FBI and probably liked the 10 and or 40 and the extra edge that it could give them. Didn't they also carry SA 1911 in 45ACP for some period of time in recent history as well. What happened to that? Sorry for my over characterizations earlier.

 

[vjb.knife1]

The author lost all credibility with me when I read "When it comes to Handgun Stopping Power....."


"Is it true that many shooters are opting for the 10mm round over the .40?"

How would you quantify "Many" ?

I looked for information on Dan Abram and couldn't find anything. The article reads like advertising copy for Springfield Armory.

I think there is some credibility to the .40S&W loosing popularity. I was looking for one recently and my go to brands are not making some of the models that they used to a while ago, and all of the gun shops told me that they just don't sell that well any longer. I still like the round and since I reload I can make it shoot the way I want it to.