9mm vs. 40 – Is the .40 Caliber a Better Handgun Cartridge?

[crkckr]

Old Airborn Dog said:
"It does? Why don't the police, anti-terrorist units, etc across the world act on that "everybody knows", kick the 9mm to the curb and all move to the Bigger Hole Forty Five?????"

Because they are blindly following the FBI? Beats the snot out of me! In fact, it seems to me we have raised an entire generation of wimps! And yes, I do carry Underwood ammo, 100 gr Lehigh Xtreme Defender's. My Glock 29 loves them. The only reason I carry factory is because I can barely get within 200 fps with my reloads!

Most of the major manufacturers have down loaded the 10mm to where it's little more than a 40 Short & Weak, thus I go with someone who actually loads the cartridge to it's full potential. There aren't that many so choices are limited.

I don't know how much effort bullet manufacturers put into bullet design but I'm fairly sure the companies I use do. Lehigh (now owned by Bill Wilson) and Speer Gold Dots are my go-to bullets. In all of my carry calibers (10mm, 45, 9mm and when desperate, .380 Auto). All are loaded with the Underwood ammo. The .380 only gets the Lehigh ammo as even Gold Dots don't open reliably at standard pressures.

Fact: 40 cal and 45 cal are bigger than 9mm. As I said, I will take any advantage no matter how small. 9mm does an ok job out of 9mm pistols and even better when launched out of a .357 Sig. But it seems to me that everyone who carries 9mm expects have to shoot multiple times to stop an attacker. While I don't put much trust into the "one shot stop" camp, one can always hope!

And don't anyone get their panties all twisted up over my "Short & Weak" comment. That's only in comparison to the 10mm. While I don't shoot 40 S&W, I believe it's a fine cartridge and definiely a better choice than the 9mm.
Cheers,
crkckr

 

[The Night Rider]

James Yeager’s medical opinion is questionable, at best.

I agree but he was quoting a medical expert who said there was no way Platt could have survived that wound. I think the other was his embellishment.

 

[Old Airborne Dog]

appreciate most of what you until, "swapping out the 10mm for a much smart tactical choice.....the 9mm" why is that smarter? Carrying a full size 10 with the same mag capacity as your average 9mm isn't a lesser tactical choice. It's a better one.

If you think I'm likely to end up in a gunfight with a grizzly bear in town here in Montana rather than the more likely scenario of having a problem with one of the homeless meth heads showing up here, then you think Montana is far more wild wild West than it is.

That said, if your pitch is that a 10mm is indisputably the best tactical choice for defensive use dealing with human threats, you really need to make your pitch to every single law enforcement agency NOT carrying the vaunted 10mm as their choice of sidearm.

Tell us what you know that those LEO agencies and their officers don't know... waiting...

There is a reason so many police shootings have mag dumps on the perp, it's bc the 9mm is an adequate round, not a great one. 780 ft lbs vs 340 impacting the same areas WILL do the job faster and better.

There have been "mag dumps" with .45 ACP. Apparently that means it is also merely an adequate round, no better than the 9mm.

I imagine the reason nobody can point to "mag dumps" from 10mm is primarily because so very few police carry them. If they are rarely, if ever, used in police shootings, then obviously they can't fail at a task that they are rarely used for.

But again, if numbers prove your case, take them to all the professional law enforcement agencies and military and explain to them that they're wrong and you're right because your numbers prove that they should actually be armed with 10mm sidearms instead.

I'm mildly surprised you didn't pitch for an even bigger, heavier, faster autopistol caliber. Why in the world would you carry a pipsqueak 10mm that only provides 760 ft. lbs. of energy when you can chamber your 1911, Glock, etc with the .460 Rowland that will give you 1600 fps and 1,000 ft. lbs of energy instead? That's an additional 25% over the pipsqueak, slower, smaller hole 10mm

Why carry 25% less energy when you've already pointed out that bigger numbers "WILL do the job faster and better"?

 

[Old Airborne Dog]

Because they are blindly following the FBI? Beats the snot out of me!

Yep, blindly following the FBI... that must be it.

In fact, it seems to me we have raised an entire generation of wimps!

I'm probably not the only one who knows many cops who moved to law enforcement after serving over in A'Stan and Iraq with the infantry, Ranger, etc. Police forces today are just full of those damned wimps!

And the deployments I did, probably like everybody else here, I was also surrounded by those wimpy "kids these days".

Like the 13 killed at the airport in Kabul less than three years ago. Five were 20 years old, some not their first deployment. Average age around 23. Damned generation of wimps...

What was the average age of the troops around you when you did your deployments and your home was a FOB? All salty old dogs in their mid to late 30's?

And yes, I do carry Underwood ammo, 100 gr Lehigh Xtreme Defender's. My Glock 29 loves them. The only reason I carry factory is because I can barely get within 200 fps with my reloads!

Was everyone you've shot with those Lehigh bullets a one shot stop? Or did you have to fire a second at any of them to finish the perp off?

 

[crkckr]

As I said, I don't know why more cops don't carry 10mm. Too heavy to carry all day? Too much recoil? I don't have a clue. Maybe it's an executive decision?

When I said a generation of wimps, that was mostly a reference to civilian shooters. There are of course, always exceptions, even in LE and the military. There are few statements that apply to everyone, everything. Plus there are people who simply cannot handle a 10mm physically. Not everyone has the necessary hand size. Just a fact of life.

I have never deployed to anywhere. Uncle wouldn't let me fly his jets so I never went in, although I did barely miss that little action in Nam. Nor have I ever been a cop. Just don't have enough of the things that make a good cop and smart enough to know it. Nor have I ever been forced to shoot anyone with anything. I tend to avoid situations where I have to, although I've come close a few times. Call it dumb luck, fortunate or being smart, it makes no difference to me. I think I'm old enough to continue doing so for the remainder of my days.

If you think a 9mm is just as good as a 10mm, 40 S&W, or .45 ACP, that's your personal decision and I'm not trying to change your, nor anyone else's, mind. Or dictate what you carry. You can load it up will ball ammo if you like and I won't complain one bit. I would never try to say 9mm doesn't work. It's certainly better than a .22lr or a BB gun but that's what's great about this country, you can carry anything you want and no one can question your decision or reasoning.

I like 10mm and I carry one, with what I think is the best ammo I can get my hands on. Just "in case." Sometimes I carry a 9mm, instead. Once in a while I carry a .380, although I try and avoid it as much as possible. I do love some flexibility!
Cheers,
crkckr

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

I was an LEO in Florida when the S&W 4006 was introduced. My duty weapon at the time was an S&W 3904. I shot 'Expert' with it. Our duty load was the 2nd Gen 115gr W-W SilverTip. I managed to spend quite a bit of range time with a new 4006 that my dad bought. My impression: it was a boat anchor. As it only offered (2) more rounds over my 3904, and the only readily available duty round at the time was Remington's 180gr JHP, I didn't see what all the fuss was about. I still don't. I was carrying a G22 on duty when I left LE. I shot it very well. And 'Yes'. I own a .40 (a recently purchased Like New SIG P239 that I simply couldn't pass up for $475). In over 40+ years of shooting, instructing, and EDCing handguns, only 2 .40 S&Ws have impressed me: SIG's P239 and Browning's Hi-Power. If using a .40S&W for EDC, I prefer 135-155gr JHPs. YMMV

i tend to stay in that range on my 40's also, then shoot 150-165's in 10mm. kind of a waste to shoot 180's and up on any 40cal as i see it. 165's are tough to beat in 10mm (150 & 155's are 2nd).

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

I’ve said this before, and I’m sure I’ll say it again, but the needs of the civilian are not the same as those of police or military. Of the four most popular pistol calibres (.380 ACP, 9x19 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP), it’s pretty clear that the energy level of .380 ACP is marginal, 9x19 mm seems to perform adequately, .40 S&W performs better, and .45 ACP performs best of all.

While it is true that “modern” projectile design has made 9x19 mm more effective than it was, those same advantages are equally applicable to heavier calibres. In terms of power vs. capacity, .40 S&W is probably the ideal compromise. It offers a good 25-30% more power than 9x19 mm while giving up little in capacity, compared with .45 ACP.

In this, I mean comparing apples to apples. Yes, you can load a 9 mm +P supersonic that is equal to a .40 S&W or .45 ACP non-+P subsonic, but then you are also increasing muzzle blast and recoil, and that might not be a good trade-off.

The most common subsonic personal defense specific loads for these calibres are:

95 gr .380 ACP
147 gr 9x19 mm
180 gr .40 S&W
230 gr .45 ACP

Subsonic ammunition is, in my opinion, the best choice for personal defense, because it generally has less muzzle blast and recoil, and with projectiles specifically designed to penetrate and expand at subsonic velocities, it has much less tendency toward overpenetration.

My advice is generally always going to be to choose from these four the most powerful calibre that you and every other authorized user of your weapon can shoot accurately and quickly enough to double tap your target. Given similar velocities, a larger, heavier bullet is always going to carry more energy and deliver more transfer of momentum.

But, these aren’t necessarily the only concerns. Compatibility with other weapons and other people is often important or at least desireable, and the popularity and lower recoil of 9x19 mm makes it a very compelling choice for a lot of people, and .45 ACP is probably still more popular than .40 S&W.

If you can reliably shoot and conceal a double-stack .45 ACP handgun, that is, in my opinion, the best choice of all, but they can tend to be pretty chunky, and even if it works for you, it might not also work for your spouse.

The right choice for you isn’t necessarily going to be the right choice for someone else.

the correct powder for the bullet weight can and will give less muzzle blast...like faster burning powders that create less gas volume..........ask me how i know

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

The .40 is a good round but for your average non gun person coming into law enforcement it was too much gun . I carried a .40 most of my career, the other time was a .45, but the G21 was just a tad too big in my hand for one hand shooting.

the g21 gen4 made me start liking the 45acp round again after having bad results with a 1911.

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

Thanks for the fine article yea I got rid of my 40 about a year. I don’t miss it at all it was small and snappy maybe if I gave it a chance with a Xd or something bigger the mp was too small nice looking thru . I will stick to my 9

i have an xdm in 40 and 10 and both are the 5.25" models.............crazy thing is both feel the same on recoil to me.

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

Remember the LE-involved shooting in Washington or Oregon where the BG was hit (14) times with .40 and still fought back?

that's 10 toes and 4 fingers (14 hits)

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

Good article. ECS686 is right. The FBI had problems with the Smith 1076 NOT the cartridge.
The gun was big and heavy for concealed carry, and because the FBI wanted a decocker like a SIG 226 that was added. Some of the decockers failed, locking the gun so it could not be fired or unloaded. An agent coming off a stakeout was particularly upset when he discovered his gun would not work. Smith and the FBI did not agree on a fix to this problem and this is when the FBI transitioned to .40 glocks.

10mm recoil was NOT a reason for the change. From day 1 the FBI issued the reduced federal 180 grain 10mm load at about 950-1000fps and later a bonded 190 grain load. There may have been some other brands but those are the two I saw that the FBI firearms instructors in the field had and talked about. Both are very accurate and pleasant to shoot in full size guns. The American rifleman published a detailed article with the head of the FBI firearms unit as the transition started on how they used reloaded Sierra 180’s in a Colt Delta elite to figure out how fast they need to push the bullet to achieve their goals and surpass the 9mm and .45 in their penetration tests. This where the phrase I don’t care what you shoot as long as it begins with a 4 comes from.
There was talk of keeping full power 10mm loads at offices for special situations but I don’t know of that happening. The FBI had done a similar thing with .357 and .38 special.

Later with the Glock .40 S&W the FBI went from 180 grain bullets around 1,000fps to 165 grain bullets at 1,000fps. They said the 165s penetrated windshields better. They suspected the higher chamber pressure of the 180 load was stressing the base of the jacket, hindering its performance compared the 180 10mm load. This maybe where the rumor or excessive recoil was started.

I like 40s but now I am usually carrying a 9mm (smaller guns) or a full power 10mm. However, there are days when I think an M&P compact .40 would be just right.

i'd say they are morons for wanting a bullet that heavy! i can state for a fact that a faster and lighter bullet having equal muzzle energy of a heavier bullet will have less felt recoil and even lighter bullets w/more muzzle energy. the gun manufacturers use a recoil spring that is best for an all around or well rounded type for bullet velocities and energies. shoot your favorite ammo and get a spring that works best for it.

 

[crkckr]

It all depends on where you hit 'em, no matter what caliber you use. Bullet placement is king, always. Secondary, but still important I believe, is how much damage the bullet can impart on a target. A perfect hit with a .380 isn't as good as a somewhat marginal hit with a .45. Using, of course, a proven bullet. HST, Gold Dot and a few others make the grade. The more energy you can dump into a BG, the better. There shouldn't be any need of discussion on that part!
Cheers,
crkckr

 

[HansGruber]

It all depends on where you hit 'em, no matter what caliber you use. Bullet placement is king, always. Secondary, but still important I believe, is how much damage the bullet can impart on a target. A perfect hit with a .380 isn't as good as a somewhat marginal hit with a .45. Using, of course, a proven bullet. HST, Gold Dot and a few others make the grade. The more energy you can dump into a BG, the better. There shouldn't be any need of discussion on that part!
Cheers,
crkckr

Yeah, no.

A perfect hit with a .380 is much more effective as a marginal hit with a .45; eg, a .380 between the eyes (perfect) will be a LOT more effective than a .45 in the arm (marginal).

And energy is one of the worst measures of bullet effectiveness you can use; it’s for amateurs who get excited about big numbers.

 

[Bassbob]

I like a .45. Mostly these days I carry a 9 though. I shoot both equally well, but one of them conceals way better than the other. And one of them holds about 7 more rounds.

Civilian needs aren’t the same as LE needs.

 

[Tacoma236]

I have shot literally every major popular round in public safety. Why 9mm? No reason, ammo less expensive, less recoil, higher capacity take your pick.

In reality I tell people to carry what they enjoy shooting. OOOOH the BIG BAD 1911 45acp winner of two world wars is completely USELESS if the person carrying it is afraid to practice or draw it and shoot it.

 

[Mr. Untactical]

If you haven't already, take those factory magazines and toss them. Buy a set of Ed Brown, Wilson combat. This would take care of a lot of feeding issues. But the failure to fire is telling us that you have a weak firing pin spring, bad firing pin, or the rounds are not head spacing correctly (or maybe the rounds are cheap junk?). None the less, try a different brand first. If things get better then we know it what you are shooting. If not, send the gun in for repairs or find a good gun smith that can take a look at it. I think this is a very fixable issue. Ummm, did you clean and lube prior to shooting. Good practice to do this on all new guns as the oil can oxidize and stiffen as the gun sits on the shelf.

Absolutely - that puppy was wet (as I've always heard 1911s run better a little wet). I probably should've saved some of the expended brass and compared the strikes to the ones that didn't fire. We have a local range with an on-site gunsmith so I'll probably hit there one day soon and do some test firing. That way, if the condition persists, I can just take it to the counter and let him look at it.

Dang... and I bought extra Springfield mags for it, too

Historically speaking, the Ronin probably has maybe 200 total rounds through it (I don't shoot it very much).

 

[ECS686]

Well, a lot of criminals are pumped up on drugs, but this not withstanding, I know an emergency room doctor (member our our church) who would tell you that the size of the wound is directly proportional to the amount of trauma inflicted. Yes, many shootings cause wounds that are "peripheral" and cause neither large wound channels or vital organ damage. It is more telling of the values of shot placement than the abilities of a particular caliber. Need to compare apples to apples and resists the "lessons learned" from generalizations.

Just sharing my experience from what I witnessed first hand.

The blunt force trama I referred to was incarcerated persons and while homemade intoxicants and or K2 and such sprayed on letters before we started E scanning mail was an occasional factor most were stone cold sober. I have several dozen stories one particular guy was
hit across the face with a pipe in UNICOR (Federal Prison Industries) crushed his sinus cavity in eye was lost dangling by the cord outside and he lived. ENT said he shouldn’t be alive in 30 years of practice worse injury he’s seen.

The guy center punched with the 230 45 JHP it was a perfect X ring B27 hit and that was the problem. LE Targets are not anatomical correct the scoring zones back then (and most now) don’t advocate proper shot placement to hit the vital (heart and aorta or nervous system)

That has caused a lot of issues from back in the day and I’m old enough I started with a S&W Model 15 and saw the whole 9 to 40 while watching a lot of 45 guys stay 45 and 357 then 357 Sig back to 40 now somewhat 9 and 45.

That said people make way more argument over extreme and few and far between cases on service caliber (and we can all cherry pick examples for our own favorites)

European Police shot folks Al but fewer times than we do and I have never read where the 9mm was as bad or ineffective than some claim here.

Like people take it personal the BD lives….Did it stop the A Hat?….then it was effective!

 

[ECS686]

I have shot literally every major popular round in public safety. Why 9mm? No reason, ammo less expensive, less recoil, higher capacity take your pick.

In reality I tell people to carry what they enjoy shooting. OOOOH the BIG BAD 1911 45acp winner of two world wars is completely USELESS if the person carrying it is afraid to practice or draw it and shoot it.

The “2 World Wars” claim crack me up as not a lot of folks were killed by handguns in WW2 compared to say the M1 Garand M1 Carbine Thompson and all the plane’s, artillery Tanks etc

On that note the 9mm has been in service longer LOL

 

[trader]

If you think I'm likely to end up in a gunfight with a grizzly bear in town here in Montana rather than the more likely scenario of having a problem with one of the homeless meth heads showing up here, then you think Montana is far more wild wild West than it is.

That said, if your pitch is that a 10mm is indisputably the best tactical choice for defensive use dealing with human threats, you really need to make your pitch to every single law enforcement agency NOT carrying the vaunted 10mm as their choice of sidearm.

Tell us what you know that those LEO agencies and their officers don't know... waiting...



There have been "mag dumps" with .45 ACP. Apparently that means it is also merely an adequate round, no better than the 9mm.

I imagine the reason nobody can point to "mag dumps" from 10mm is primarily because so very few police carry them. If they are rarely, if ever, used in police shootings, then obviously they can't fail at a task that they are rarely used for.

But again, if numbers prove your case, take them to all the professional law enforcement agencies and military and explain to them that they're wrong and you're right because your numbers prove that they should actually be armed with 10mm sidearms instead.

I'm mildly surprised you didn't pitch for an even bigger, heavier, faster autopistol caliber. Why in the world would you carry a pipsqueak 10mm that only provides 760 ft. lbs. of energy when you can chamber your 1911, Glock, etc with the .460 Rowland that will give you 1600 fps and 1,000 ft. lbs of energy instead? That's an additional 25% over the pipsqueak, slower, smaller hole 10mm

Why carry 25% less energy when you've already pointed out that bigger numbers "WILL do the job faster and better"?

your snark doesn't prove your point. My point was for personal carry, leos can carry what they want, and by and large what they are told to. And by the way when I may be a grizzly country, yes, I do carry a bigger option, it's called the 454 casull. You need to have more respect for others on this chat as you aren't the final word on anything.

 

[trader]

one more thing, I do carry differing calibers depending on location, details etc. When it's a 9mm, or a 45acp it is always +P. Atomic makes a fine round, so do Underwood, buffalo bore and others, which I do use