9mm vs. 40 – Is the .40 Caliber a Better Handgun Cartridge?

[crkckr]

Hans said:
"Yeah, no.

A perfect hit with a .380 is much more effective as a marginal hit with a .45; eg, a .380 between the eyes (perfect) will be a LOT more effective than a .45 in the arm (marginal)."

A .380 to the forehead may not even penetrate, rendering it ineffective, although it should at least hurt like hell! A hit in an extremity is a peripheral hit. A marginal hit would be one near the heart or liver, one that perhaps nicks a major organ or blood vessel, where the same hit with a .380 or 9mm might not touch anything at all, simply poking a pencil lead sized hole. I suppose it comes down to a mix of skill and luck. All the skill in the world doesn't do you any good if your hits miss the heart by mm's or you're using something like ball ammo, which doesn't work well unless shots are perfect.

I never mentioned anything about energy, although it does count, although it's down the list of what does count. Shot placement, bullet type, velocity, energy, skill and luck all play their parts. If you're missing a lot of any one of them, things might not go so well for you in the face of a determined attacker. Most thugs don't like being shot at much less being shot... by anything! Even a .22lr will scare off most folks with evil intent. It's the crazy or meth'ed up bone head that requires the best you've got to carry the day.
Cheers,
crkckr

 

[HansGruber]

Hans said:
"Yeah, no.

A perfect hit with a .380 is much more effective as a marginal hit with a .45; eg, a .380 between the eyes (perfect) will be a LOT more effective than a .45 in the arm (marginal)."

A .380 to the forehead may not even penetrate, rendering it ineffective, although it should at least hurt like hell! A hit in an extremity is a peripheral hit. A marginal hit would be one near the heart or liver, one that perhaps nicks a major organ or blood vessel, where the same hit with a .380 or 9mm might not touch anything at all, simply poking a pencil lead sized hole. I suppose it comes down to a mix of skill and luck. All the skill in the world doesn't do you any good if your hits miss the heart by mm's or you're using something like ball ammo, which doesn't work well unless shots are perfect.

I never mentioned anything about energy, although it does count, although it's down the list of what does count. Shot placement, bullet type, velocity, energy, skill and luck all play their parts. If you're missing a lot of any one of them, things might not go so well for you in the face of a determined attacker. Most thugs don't like being shot at much less being shot... by anything! Even a .22lr will scare off most folks with evil intent. It's the crazy or meth'ed up bone head that requires the best you've got to carry the day.
Cheers,
crkckr

I guarantee you, a .380 to the forehead—at a typical distance, say within 50 feet—will go right through the bone into the squishy stuff.

The only way it wouldn’t—ie, odd angle or a glancing shot—would end in the same result for heavier calibers, or would be the result of a bad round—in which case, again, the caliber wouldn’t matter.

 

[ECS686]

I guarantee you, a .380 to the forehead—at a typical distance, say within 50 feet—will go right through the bone into the squishy stuff.

The only way it wouldn’t—ie, odd angle or a glancing shot—would end in the same result for heavier calibers, or would be the result of a bad round—in which case, again, the caliber wouldn’t matter.

That’s a guarantee you can’t back up! A head shot by any handgun caliber is never a sure bet one and done. Below is a 45 acp that looks like he needs Dr Pimple popper more than an ER!

there is both stories this was a reload and this was factory however one fact is both ammunition have failed in head shots on some folks. Some are just lucky as &$;”!

 

[HansGruber]

That’s a guarantee you can’t back up! A head shot by any handgun caliber is never a sure bet one and done. Below is a 45 acp that looks like he needs Dr Pimple popper more than an ER!

there is both stories this was a reload and this was factory however one fact is both ammunition have failed in head shots on some folks. Some are just lucky as &$;”!

Details of that shoot, please.

What range was the shot? Did it go through auto glass first? Was it a squib round?

More info than a picture is required.

Either way—see my post a page or two back about “outliers”. This exemplifies that thought process to a “T”.

 

[Ginkus]

What is left unsaid is that the introduction light plastic guns made it difficult for many recruits to qualify. The increased recoil and muzzle flip of these guns had a profound impact on law enforcement personnel's ability to do what they were expect to do on the range and on the job. Having many police friends during this time, everyone of them told me the move back to 9mm was influence by this. Is the 40S&W better? Well, yes, but... it becomes a trade off when you start to look at the light weight guns. I will say that the last several years have seen great improvement in the 9mm.

Just for the record I own three 40s including the 4006. I hand load 155gr (can't always find them) and have used 165gr. I always felt that 180gr was a bit much for a .40 caliber, and I preferred the slightly higher velocities of the lighter bullets. Just my 2c.

“What is left unsaid is that the introduction to light plastic guns made it difficult for many recruits to qualify.”

Amen. Just because the FBI does it, does not make it moral or right. A heavier gun is stable and absorbs recoil efficiently. I spent some 20 years in the Marines (M1911A1 to M9). I could shoot better with the M9, because it was a new weapon with good sites. Our 1911 were 1940-50 retreads with horrible triggers and sites. I now carry a Springfield 1911 and shoot +P ammunition. It is accurate, deadly, and fun.

 

[ECS686]

Details of that shoot, please.

What range was the shot? Did it go through auto glass first? Was it a squib round?

More info than a picture is required.

Either way—see my post a page or two back about “outliers”. This exemplifies that thought process to a “T”.

I can’t find the story but there were 2 versions 1 it was a Deputy in Florida class in. 2nd story someone said (said as in no proof just a theory or conjecture) it just had to be a failed load.

Which either cas ediesnt matter as I have seen several non fatal head shots. Yes you will probably ring their bell but a one and dune is boat a 100% thing period (unless it’s a 25 acp then I’d bet that wouldn’t work as that’s what got Richard Ramariz aka the Nightstalker caught. First crime when he changed from a 22 to a. 25 acp same MO but the victims lived and were able to give police his description)

Folks that think caliber selection alone is all remind me of those folks that don’t think they need flood insurance because “well it hasn’t flooded for 40 years I’ll be ok”

 

[HansGruber]

I’ve owned several .40’s over the years; the two lightest recoiling ones are my USP40, and a Para P16.40 I sold several years ago…with the plastic (USP) being lighter in recoil.

Even my USP40 Compact has lighter recoil than the P226 I had…

It’s not the lightweight plastic guns, so much. It’s that a LOT of .40’s out there are just slightly beefed up 9mm’s.

 

[HansGruber]

I can’t find the story but there were 2 versions 1 it was a Deputy in Florida class in. 2nd story someone said (said as in no proof just a theory or conjecture) it just had to be a failed load.

Which either cas ediesnt matter as I have seen several non fatal head shots. Yes you will probably ring their bell but a one and dune is boat a 100% thing period (unless it’s a 25 acp then I’d bet that wouldn’t work as that’s what got Richard Ramariz aka the Nightstalker caught. First crime when he changed from a 22 to a. 25 acp same MO but the victims lived and were able to give police his description)

Folks that think caliber selection alone is all remind me of those folks that don’t think they need flood insurance because “well it hasn’t flooded for 40 years I’ll be ok”

That’s why Cooper invented the “Rapid Pair”—aka “Doubletap”.

 

[babaylan]

Just because the FBI does it, does not make it moral or right

I just want to reiterate my point that the requirements of the FBI or other police, security, or military agencies are not necessarily appropriate for civilian use.

There is a very strong tendency in the online firearms community to assume that what military, security, and police agencies decide is best suited to their needs is automatically what works best for civilians, when it may not only not work best, but may be totally inappropriate for civilians.

The fact of the matter is that most civilian defensive uses of firearms have little to do with the situations in which LEOs may need to fire their weapons, despite the wild scenarios that often rear their outlandish heads in gun forum sites.

One glaring fact is that in some states, the usage of hollowpoint ammunition by civilians in a carry weapon outside the home or a shooting range is illegal, and that changes things considerably.

 

[HansGruber]

I just want to reiterate my point that the requirements of the FBI or other police, security, or military agencies are not necessarily appropriate for civilian use.

There is a very strong tendency in the online firearms community to assume that what military, security, and police agencies decide is best suited to their needs is automatically what works best for civilians, when it may not only not work best, but may be totally inappropriate for civilians.

The fact of the matter is that most civilian defensive uses of firearms have little to do with the situations in which LEOs may need to fire their weapons, despite the wild scenarios that often rear their outlandish heads in gun forum sites.

One glaring fact is that in some states, the usage of hollowpoint ammunition by civilians in a carry weapon outside the home or a shooting range is illegal, and that changes things considerably.

On hollow points outside the home—

There’s only one state that has this restriction to the best of my knowledge—New Jersey.

And it’s pretty much a moot point as it’s nigh on impossible to get a carry permit there, anyway.

But, if I lived there and was so fortunate as to get a carry permit?

Revolver with semi-wadcutters would do the trick. Otherwise, find a heavy FNFMJ or similar that your chosen bottom feeder won’t choke on (say, a 200gr SWC out of a .45).

 

[3L120]

That’s a guarantee you can’t back up! A head shot by any handgun caliber is never a sure bet one and done. Below is a 45 acp that looks like he needs Dr Pimple popper more than an ER!

there is both stories this was a reload and this was factory however one fact is both ammunition have failed in head shots on some folks. Some are just lucky as &$;”!

Iwillchime inherent. As a L.A.cop, starting in the early 70s, I saw the aftermath of a bunch of shootings. Blacks in the south end preferred .32s, while their Latin counterparts seemed to like .38s, or whatever they could get, including sawed-off .22s and single barrel shotguns. There were surprisingly a number of head shots, including .32s. Rarely recovered the gun, so not sure is .32 long or short. Whetever they were, they penetrated. Only .25 I heard mention of, was when Wayne Satz, ace reporter stated that an officer riding in the ambulance with a dying suspect, shot him many times with a .25, in the ambulance. Turns out that suspect had caught a load of 00 buckshot prior to his ambulance ride. Satz was an AH then and I am sure he still is. Full frontal shot with almost anything will penetrate a skull. Although, some folks out there do have THICK skulls.

 

[3L120]

My2 cents worth ( miss the cent sign). Carried both a .38 and 9mm as a cop, never a .40. However, later when I worked executive protection, I decided a .40 was more in order. I was impressed with the performance of either the .38 or 9mm when working alone in a security detail. More to the point, whatever improvements in 9mm bullets would also work in the .40. If you have a near y back-up, a 9mm with a great bullet is sufficient. If working alone, whether protecting someone or in the woods, protecting your family, a hot loaded .40 or larger/more powerful round is a better choice, in my opinion.