I have one too and paired with +P ammo it is an excellent choice
9mm vs. 40 – Is the .40 Caliber a Better Handgun Cartridge?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
CCJ
Operator
Well, sure have to say those stories are right out of a horror movie. Some factors are not taken into consideration when evaluating one's ability to take that kind of damage and keep on ticking... like their level of crazy. Oh... and daemon possession. Seems like a scary place.
I get your point HG, but there are almost never any perfect hits, with any caliber. a moving body doesn't lend itself to that. That being said, while a .380 is something of a mouse gun ( I DO have one btw and sometimes use it bc it's tiny) perhaps we all can agree that someone, for personal carry, not leo carry which is largely mandated, should use what they can properly handle and have trained with. Energy is only one of the measures, yes there are many more, bullet type, fps, etc. One must acknowledge energy (related to speed) is a main contributing factor in impact and penetration effectiveness, but not the only and no it's not for amateurs. ALL the respected manufacturers and equipment sites offer those stats. We in the firearms community should not dismiss nor disparage others who don't agree with us on certain points. That is rude and disrespectful. My experience with Firearms spans over 50 years in varying conditions, uses etc and I have trained several on the safe and appropriate use therein. Encourage debate, sometimes that helps us all learn. If cartridge manufacturers refused to listen we would not have the wide choices we now have. cheers
HansGruber
Ronin
What I think people like to look at are outliers; those 1 in tens of millions events (the Solis shooting, for example, were the aggressor took 13 rounds of well-placed .45 JHP’s before he went down) and don’t look at most defensive shootings to base their views.
In short, they’re driven by emotion—fear, not logic.
Definitely seeing plenty of that in this thread.
In short, they’re driven by emotion—fear, not logic.
Definitely seeing plenty of that in this thread.
Sld1959
Ronin
Old old argument, and no matter what people will believe what they will. Have studied many studies and charts detailing the results of real world shootings and theoretical mathematical results both, there are tons out there by very respected persons and very easy to find and read. I have ran tests of my own in various mediums and everything points to one thing.
The actual results between common defensive pistol cartridges, including .380 all the way up to 44 special, are very thin when properly used and placed. Differences do not raise dramatically until we start adding rifle and shotguns to the stats.
What do I take from it. Use whatever uou are comfortable with shooting, carrying and feel will perform to your own standards . Practice until you are proficient, and carry it constantly. Don't worry about trying to change someone else, they are not really wrong, just comfortable otherwise.
The actual results between common defensive pistol cartridges, including .380 all the way up to 44 special, are very thin when properly used and placed. Differences do not raise dramatically until we start adding rifle and shotguns to the stats.
What do I take from it. Use whatever uou are comfortable with shooting, carrying and feel will perform to your own standards . Practice until you are proficient, and carry it constantly. Don't worry about trying to change someone else, they are not really wrong, just comfortable otherwise.
Last edited:
The joke by the nurses at our local hospital when we brought assault victims from the USP in was “oh he’ll live he has more than 3 faded ink prison tattoos “ and sure enough he did!
The. Others I interviewed would show me the wounds from shootouts (both gangland and Police) I’d look at their Pre Sentence Investigation (PEI) and sure enough dude was straight up telling the truth.
Why I came up with “Real Thugs don’t study gel tests and don’t know how awesome your new round is supposed to be”
Sort of goes with Dave Spaulding’s phrase “they don’t think like you do”
excellent
while I have used a friends 357 Sig at the range, I've not owned nor carried one in this chambering. How do you like it?
TarnishedCopper
Alpha
It would be interesting to see the same penetration/wound cavity test done with a .45 ACP round just for comparison.
I don't own a .40, but do own several 9mm's and .45's. Years ago, the local Sheriff's Dept. was carrying S&W Model 45-06 pistols. Some of the officers I knew described them as a "club with bullets." I later bought a police trade-in S&W 45-86 and it is a fine pistol.
I don't own a .40, but do own several 9mm's and .45's. Years ago, the local Sheriff's Dept. was carrying S&W Model 45-06 pistols. Some of the officers I knew described them as a "club with bullets." I later bought a police trade-in S&W 45-86 and it is a fine pistol.
I like it in my XD40 4" with conversion 357 Sig barrel, my XD357 Sig and the G-33, also bought a conversion barrel for my M&P40C 3.6", It is good, but I think 40 is more practical. I like the bottleneck feature of the 357 Sig. I tend to carry Underwood 125 Gold Dot ammo and am happy with it's performance in all my 357 Sig guns. For 40 I use Underwood with 155 Gr XTP's
The Night Rider
Professional
Here is a very good article that addresses the 9V.40v.45ACP debate
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/why-glock-why-9mm
QUOTE from the article
I thought back to the effects different pistol rounds having on animals, victim's of shootings, and Officer involved shootings that I had seen personally and read about during my career. I couldn't think of a single shooting where the person or animal was shot with a 9mm and lived, but would have died if the round would have been a .40S&W or a .45acp. And I could not think of a single shooting where a person or animal was shot with a .40S&W or a .45acp and died, but would have survived if the round would have been a 9mm.
It's an old article it's almost impossible to find on the internet anymore but I think the author makes some really valid points
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/why-glock-why-9mm
QUOTE from the article
I thought back to the effects different pistol rounds having on animals, victim's of shootings, and Officer involved shootings that I had seen personally and read about during my career. I couldn't think of a single shooting where the person or animal was shot with a 9mm and lived, but would have died if the round would have been a .40S&W or a .45acp. And I could not think of a single shooting where a person or animal was shot with a .40S&W or a .45acp and died, but would have survived if the round would have been a 9mm.
It's an old article it's almost impossible to find on the internet anymore but I think the author makes some really valid points
Muzzle flip is a valid concern in the .40 S&W vs. 9mm debate, but it shouldn't be a surprise that some models of the .40 S&W are better than others. I've carried a Sig P229 in .40 S&W for over 20 years. While there's a lot to like about the P229, the muzzle flip is violent and snappy. Same with my CZ P-06, the discontinued .40 S&W version of the P-01 in 9mm. The P-01 is an absolute joy to shoot, and if I HAD to pick a favorite pistol, that would be it. On the other hand, the P-06 has an almost unmanageable muzzle flip, and it's the only one of my many CZs that I don't like. I'm not crazy about my Kahr CW40, either. On the other hand, I have several SA XD pistols in 9mm and .40 S&W, and I was pleasantly surprised with the handling of their .40s. Muzzle flip is unnoticeable, even with the 3" Subcompact. I also have the FNS40 and FNX40, and they shoot with buttery smoothness.
It will be interesting to see how the future treats the .40 S&W. While the market seems to be moving away from it, you never know. Look at the Army. One of the reasons they adopted the M-16 and its follow-ons was because you could carry a boatload more rounds of 5.56 compared to the same weight of 7.62 rounds. But now they've decided more stopping power is the priority in going with the 6.8mm. Trade-offs.
It will be interesting to see how the future treats the .40 S&W. While the market seems to be moving away from it, you never know. Look at the Army. One of the reasons they adopted the M-16 and its follow-ons was because you could carry a boatload more rounds of 5.56 compared to the same weight of 7.62 rounds. But now they've decided more stopping power is the priority in going with the 6.8mm. Trade-offs.
Old Airborne Dog
Alpha
Here's a crazy idea: maybe because the companies manufacturing the service handgun ammunition in the other calibers tell their LEO agency customers that there is no significant difference in the terminal ballistics of those calibers.
Is that a crazy radical idea, or does Occam's Razor come to mind?
Rather than having a deep suspicion that cops wearing all the stuff they do today can't handle a few more ounces? Or perhaps an executive decision, with no worry that their unionized police won't mind if they're armed with a supposedly mediocre caliber instead of the penultimate 10mm that is clearly so superior to everything else?
Thinking or expressing an opinion is very different than making a statement of fact about your personal choices that are handed over while looking down your nose at those carrying something different.
CCJ
Operator
Interesting take on the subject. Maybe it comes down to the gun you feel most comfortable with, the one you shoot the best with. After all, as pointed out earlier, shot placement is probably the most important aspect of stopping ability. I guess this boils down to the skill of the shooter and not so much the caliber used. That being said, not everyone functions well under pressure. Range time and threat time are not equal. Practice makes perfect, and when it come to a self-defense shootings one does not often get the time to "think about it". It become a reaction where muscle memory and mental conditioning come into play. If you do something often enough your mind and body become conditioned and you do it with less and less thought. I once watch a trick shooter draw and shoot a balloon, and re-holster his weapon in .052 seconds. He was so fast his movements were a blur, and was faster than the human nervous system reaction time for thought/response. So he was not thinking about it... it was all conditioned reaction from tons of practice. Unfortunately, most do not practice often enough to reach a level of conditioning that allows for proper shot placement when under stress.
I practice often with a multitude of different firearms (Glock not being one of them) as I am sure that most posting here on this forum do also. Maybe I'm old fashion, maybe I lack faith in my own "conditioning" to hit under stress (thankfully never had to), maybe I lean on larger calibers for "peace of mind" (and I will give you that it could be a false sense of "peace of mind").
I have to tell you that you either love Glock or hate them. I know... they are reliable, durable, light for carry, and just plain work under the worst of conditions... but they are the ugliest guns ever made in my opinion and I don't find them comfortable in my (small) hands. They have a strage bulky feel and my short stubby finger find them hard to grasp (most gifted with ten thumbs would feel this way). I have shot many over the years and I alway come away thinking "ouch".
Last edited:
Old Airborne Dog
Alpha
Your lecturing me with your Carrying a full size 10 with the same mag capacity as your average 9mm isn't a lesser tactical choice. It's a better one. and other parts of your post is what earned you the ridicule that you worked so hard to earn.
But go ahead ignore me for the moment: explain to everybody and every LEO agency in America why a 10mm is clearly a better tactical choice than a 9mm.
It still sounds ridiculous to me, but go ahead and make your argument it's the better choice to them, not me.
You need to stop with the ridiculous lecturer reminiscent of Obama and his "teachable moments" in your responses to other people posting. At least if you don't want to be hurt right in the feels by the responses you get from those you direct those comments to. Declarations of what you insinuate are facts are not the same as a differing opinion. Try throwing a little "In my opinion" the next time to modify those declarations you make.
As someone you know very well just pointed out to me "you aren't the final word on anything" - including whether a 10mm is a better tactical choice than a 9mm.
Old Airborne Dog
Alpha
Not to slag the 1911, particularly when I spent a lot of money to own the one I have.
Instead, fascinated that the .45 ACP somehow or other won WWI... when our ground troops finally had boots on the ground for only the last 35 weeks or so of the war. While Germany was crumbling internally (and rampant communist dissent) while slowly logarithmicly losing the war of attrition to the Allies on the one side and the Russians they had make the mistake of attacking on the other front? The .45 ACP in the 1911 won it in those few short years of that five year long war?
I'm going to take a wild assed guess here and say if there was a pistol caliber that did the most on the winning side in WWI, it was probably the .455 Webley. Primarily chambered in Webley revolvers, but some S&W Triple Locks also chambered in .455 Webley were involved. Particularly at that time when Commonwealth nations' officers were expected to fork out for their own uniforms, boots, swords, saddles, spurs, etc and sidearms. I have one of each of those revolvers from WWI.
Also worth noting that some of the winning side countries in WWI were the same winning side countries in WWII, and are now current NATO countries.
Other thing they have in common is they carried 9mm handguns while winning those wars and now in NATO. 9mm instead of .45 ACP.
Just throwing that historical reminder out there for interest.
The Night Rider
Professional
Screw it.
Go big or go home
The problem with the 10mm while the original loading by Norma was hit and earned respect short of finding underwood Buffalo bore and others the MAJORITY of 10mm is nothing much more than 40 S&W ballistics in a longer case and bigger gun.
Then the cost is why agencies went away from it same with 357 Sig while for an individual to keep themselves in 10mm isn’t much when an agency that has say 500-1,500 officers it really Turkey makes a difference. Add that up to the average 5-7 year cycle agencies issue a certain make of firearm again it only goes up 5-7 times then!
So while some like what they like if an agency can do an adequate caliber for less they will. And if your lucky they will have a agency approved list of calibers and then you can knock yourself out!
Then the cost is why agencies went away from it same with 357 Sig while for an individual to keep themselves in 10mm isn’t much when an agency that has say 500-1,500 officers it really Turkey makes a difference. Add that up to the average 5-7 year cycle agencies issue a certain make of firearm again it only goes up 5-7 times then!
So while some like what they like if an agency can do an adequate caliber for less they will. And if your lucky they will have a agency approved list of calibers and then you can knock yourself out!