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Is a .22LR round plausible for self defense?

MrMichaelActual said:
Okay Okay, since this topic was broached in a Rabbit trail on the .357 thread, I thought I might as well make a thread for it.

Can a .22LR be a good defense round?

For me the answer is a solid no, let me explain why. (Opinion Only)

First, any round can kill an opponent when placed perfectly, so this is not about that.

Most of the argument for the .22 for defense we read about or have any data on is related to, you get almost no recoil so weak shooters can put X rounds on target, or you have 79 rounds with which to hit your target so... and the FBI stats show that certain .22LR rounds can penetrate deep enough to meet their own gun buying standards (10-12 inches), but in my humble opinion those are outliers.
What are other consideration? Well, when shooting in combat, running and gunning under pressure, putting that tiny round exactly on the X may be harder than you think. Note: I have never tried this with a .22 pistol, I am a GWOT Army guy...
When acting under duress in order to stop an attacker, I dont know that I want to depend on micro precision with a tiny round, hoping that I hit an organ or other incapacitating point, when if I were shooting a 9mm or 10mm or another defense round, one bullet near that area would stop an attacker.
Another thing in the back of my mind is the condition of the attacker. If a person is high on whatever drug, you can stitch them up with rounds but unless you hit an organ that stops life or a bone structure that stops movement, that high person would still get to you, this has been seen all over the world in combat. In this case you could potentially mag dump your .22 on someone who was high and barring that perfect shot you could still get killed.

There is a lot more to this but these are my initial thoughts.
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So:

Placing a .22 on the X is definitely no harder than placing a 9mm or .45 on the X; in fact, when it comes to subsequent shots, it’s going to be a lot easier due to low recoil.

I’d much rather have a .22 placed well than a 9mm, etc, placed sloppily, so…yeah, your concept of a 9mm or 10mm just “near that area” needs some rethinking.

Simple fact is—a LOT of people have been stopped by a .22 used in self defense…simply because the vast majority of defensive shooting stops are what are called psychological stops; the psychological shock of being shot ends aggression, even though there wasn’t severe physiological trauma that would instantly physically incapacitate the recipient.

End of the day? Caliber will almost certainly be irrelevant. Having a firearm, having the will to use it and the skill to make rapid hits will matter INFINITELY more than how big the bullets are.
 
HansGruber said:
So:

Placing a .22 on the X is definitely no harder than placing a 9mm or .45 on the X; in fact, when it comes to subsequent shots, it’s going to be a lot easier due to low recoil.

I’d much rather have a .22 placed well than a 9mm, etc, placed sloppily, so…yeah, your concept of a 9mm or 10mm just “near that area” needs some rethinking.

Simple fact is—a LOT of people have been stopped by a .22 used in self defense…simply because the vast majority of defensive shooting stops are what are called psychological stops; the psychological shock of being shot ends aggression, even though there wasn’t severe physiological trauma that would instantly physically incapacitate the recipient.

End of the day? Caliber will almost certainly be irrelevant. Having a firearm, having the will to use it and the skill to make rapid hits will matter INFINITELY more than how big the bullets are.
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Well said. (y)
 
SimonRL said:
Yeah, No. I’m just sayin’…

View attachment 44245
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One picture says it all, now doesn't it :D

I just don't get it either, WHY would you pick a .22 for home defense? If that's all you had sure, but if you had a choice you'd take the plinker that your neighbor wouldn't complain about if you shot it in your backyard? Is it that hard to shoot .380 or 9mm and place a couple shots right or close enough instead of firing 30x .22 hoping to hit something? Isn't it the same target you're aiming at? Does the target change because of the caliber?
 
SimonRL said:
And in other news are hammer fired pistols really better than striker fired? Is .45acp on the way out? Is @Annihilator really just a poor AI beta test?
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IMG_2123.gif
 
bc22wm said:
IS A .22LR ROUND PLAUSIBLE FOR SELF DEFENSE?
Yes. Okay not my first choice but yes plausible. I can carry a NAA mini mag in an extreme non-permissible environment, where legal, even easier than a j frame, and just me I don't trust small auto's, I know my gut may be wrong, but it is still my gut feeling. For someone on a fixed income ammo is cheap and they can shoot/practice to their hearts content and still pay the bills. The vast majority of us will never use a gun in self-defense. We will not be "when shooting in combat, running and gunning under pressure", Although I agree with " putting that tiny round exactly on the X may be harder than you think." The majority of Those that do have to use a gun will be pumping gas, using the atm, etc., even in our home, self-defense, not combat, though in the moment I'll bet the difference is lost ;) most people will not want to be shot with anything let alone be shot again. Predators want easy prey, not those that will fight back. Again, not my first choice, but way better than a harsh word and a mean look.

Then maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate.
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I just bought a NAA .22lr mini revolver this week. I'm waiting for it to ship from the warehouse to my LGS so I can pick it up. I bought the model that came with the skeletonized belt buckle like seen in the Google stock photo below.

IMG_20230927_215253.jpg
 
I used to carry this (Bersa Model 23) during the summer months. However, since I bought a S & W Shield a number of years ago it has been out of the rotation since both guns are about the same size, and 9MM is a better personal defense round. Because the Bersa is all steel, the manual safety decocks, it is single/double action, and holds 10 in the mag it has all the qualities of a reliable carry piece. If it was all I had I wouldn't hesitate to carry it as a pocket pistol regardless of it being .22 cal.
Bersa Model 23, .22 cal.JPG
 
HansGruber said:
So:

Placing a .22 on the X is definitely no harder than placing a 9mm or .45 on the X; in fact, when it comes to subsequent shots, it’s going to be a lot easier due to low recoil.

I’d much rather have a .22 placed well than a 9mm, etc, placed sloppily, so…yeah, your concept of a 9mm or 10mm just “near that area” needs some rethinking.

Simple fact is—a LOT of people have been stopped by a .22 used in self defense…simply because the vast majority of defensive shooting stops are what are called psychological stops; the psychological shock of being shot ends aggression, even though there wasn’t severe physiological trauma that would instantly physically incapacitate the recipient.

End of the day? Caliber will almost certainly be irrelevant. Having a firearm, having the will to use it and the skill to make rapid hits will matter INFINITELY more than how big the bullets are.
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Sure, I sort of agree... but the premise is, Is a .22 a good round for self defense. We can agree to disagree... The answe for me is no. I have been shot with a .22 and here I am. A perfect placed shot with a .22 is needed if a .22 is your end game.
 
In my 28 years in law enforcement in a mostly rural county I have been on the scene of 10 deaths caused by a .22LR where someone shot someone else. Been on a few suicides where a .22 LR was used.

I recall where one victim was shot 17 times and bled out, but most were shot only once or twice in the head or vitals.

I admit I've gone out when I hear things go bump in the night armed only with a .22 LR, typically expecting some 4 legged varmint that I may have to dispatch, but I'd probably not hesitated to use it if I'd had to confront a 2 legged varmint intending to do perform mischief around my place at night. Ten rounds of Stingers will mess up a fellow if he's not careful.
 
The slaughterhouse we used when I was a kid used a .22 to kill hogs and steers. I have used a .22 (as well as other caliers) to dispatch many hogs in my corral traps. There is no doubt that a .22 is a lethal round with accurate shot placement. But.

There are several factors involved in stopping an opponent or beast. Damaging critical systems like heart, lungs, and CNS that are needed to sustain an attack. Shock from the injury to critical systems diminish immediate abilities. Hydrostatic shock to the body from the temporary wound channel has a profound effect on all the systems. Letting the blood out will shut everything down. The mass and energy of the projectile determine the exent of those effects.

Speed, power, and accuracy will determine the outcome of a gunfight. Although a .22 can get the job done, larger calibers will get it done better and faster. I think .22 has some specific military applications and beats a sharp stick, but is a marginal defensive caliber. In my opinion given modern ammo and frames, 9mm or .38 spl is the minimum effective defensive caliber.
 
MrMichaelActual said:
Sure, I sort of agree... but the premise is, Is a .22 a good round for self defense. We can agree to disagree... The answe for me is no. I have been shot with a .22 and here I am. A perfect placed shot with a .22 is needed if a .22 is your end game.
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No, your premise is—and I quote—“Is the .22 PLAUSIBLE for self defense”…and yes, it very much is.

If it wasn’t plausible, it wouldn’t be capable of getting a stop.

Tell me—when you were shot with that .22–did you stop what you were doing? Did it get your attention?

You seem to conflate “effective for self defense” abd “fatal 100% of the time”…which is very much flawed.
 
bc22wm said:
IS A .22LR ROUND PLAUSIBLE FOR SELF DEFENSE?
Yes. Okay not my first choice but yes plausible. I can carry a NAA mini mag in an extreme non-permissible environment, where legal, even easier than a j frame, and just me I don't trust small auto's, I know my gut may be wrong, but it is still my gut feeling. For someone on a fixed income ammo is cheap and they can shoot/practice to their hearts content and still pay the bills. The vast majority of us will never use a gun in self-defense. We will not be "when shooting in combat, running and gunning under pressure", Although I agree with " putting that tiny round exactly on the X may be harder than you think." The majority of Those that do have to use a gun will be pumping gas, using the atm, etc., even in our home, self-defense, not combat, though in the moment I'll bet the difference is lost ;) most people will not want to be shot with anything let alone be shot again. Predators want easy prey, not those that will fight back. Again, not my first choice, but way better than a harsh word and a mean look.

Then maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate.
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I agree with you, but this is the 'a .22 is better than nothing argument'.
 
HansGruber said:
No, your premise is—and I quote—“Is the .22 PLAUSIBLE for self defense”…and yes, it very much is.

If it wasn’t plausible, it wouldn’t be capable of getting a stop.

Tell me—when you were shot with that .22–did you stop what you were doing? Did it get your attention?

You seem to conflate “effective for self defense” abd “fatal 100% of the time”…which is very much flawed.
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hmmm semantics, perhaps I used incorrect verbiage. When I think of self defense in my brain I think of whatever things most of us have on hand at the gas station or store etc, not something I have in the closet that I could get and load and defend myself with in a perfect scenario. Yes getting hit with a .22 damn sure gets your attention and hurts like a mf.
 
In my brain when I started this I was thinking about Defense based on what you have on you daily; Is it a plausible defense round when you have all your other choices available. Sorry perhaps I should have used the title Daily Carry for self defense... I would never recommend a .22 be anyone's daily carry for the reasons I stated. Yes a .22 could be used if its all you had around, as could a stick or rock or your car. But for most of us, if we were involved in a defending ourselves situation, would we use a .22? My argument has never been that a great .22 shot cannot work, nor that a .22 will not kill a person nor if it can be used to hunt or kill a deer or cow. Really, noone in their right mind will reach into their safe and grab the .22 over the .45
 
Faulkner said:
In my 28 years in law enforcement in a mostly rural county I have been on the scene of 10 deaths caused by a .22LR where someone shot someone else. Been on a few suicides where a .22 LR was used.

I recall where one victim was shot 17 times and bled out, but most were shot only once or twice in the head or vitals.

I admit I've gone out when I hear things go bump in the night armed only with a .22 LR, typically expecting some 4 legged varmint that I may have to dispatch, but I'd probably not hesitated to use it if I'd had to confront a 2 legged varmint intending to do perform mischief around my place at night. Ten rounds of Stingers will mess up a fellow if he's not careful.
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Interesting, when I got shot with a .22 it was also in a rural area as a kid... we were just being dumb, I made him mad, he shot me. I wonder how the statistics of rural gunshot violence compare to city gunshot violence as far as caliber.
 
MrMichaelActual said:
In my brain when I started this I was thinking about Defense based on what you have on you daily; Is it a plausible defense round when you have all your other choices available. Sorry perhaps I should have used the title Daily Carry for self defense... I would never recommend a .22 be anyone's daily carry for the reasons I stated. Yes a .22 could be used if its all you had around, as could a stick or rock or your car. But for most of us, if we were involved in a defending ourselves situation, would we use a .22? My argument has never been that a great .22 shot cannot work, nor that a .22 will not kill a person nor if it can be used to hunt or kill a deer or cow. Really, noone in their right mind will reach into their safe and grab the .22 over the .45
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Sorry I should have titled this Would you choose it for self defense or Is it the right choice for self defense...
 
Guns and ammo or Handguns mag just did an article on this.
They looked at 22LR and22Mag and looked at different ammos. Federal Punch rated very well in both versions, as did one version of Hornady, particular in 22Mag

Based on that article, I would carry something in 22LR loaded with th2 punch. I would prefer the 22mag but the thread is about LR
 
Your original question stated and I quote.

Can the. 22lr be a good defense round.



In answer to your original question, yes, it can, if used correctly and placed correctly. It can cause more damage than some believe, there is a reason poachers use it, it can be very effective. Yes when it isn't they just try again on a different animal. But that little bullet can pinball around and cause all sorts of havoc, almost killed Pres. Reagan by doing that. I have seen animals with wounds in several organs from one round that way. Statistics and after shooting reports bear this out, there is not as much difference in one shot stop percentages or rounds to incapacitating between all handgun rounds. The big jump comes when you start adding in rifke and shotgun rounds.



I do not think anyone has stated that it would be thier first choice. Matter of fact I know Hans first choice is a JFRAMe .38 special. My own is often a .380 acp revolver in summer, and .38/357 magnum in cooler weather.

Now I suppose we need to argue opinions on revolvers vs pistols..
 
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