"Is Capacity Still Important?"

[Bassbob]

I see and hear real life factual and actual stories on a regular basis where a gun was needed and used in a self defense incident or at least was needed. I can do a search and name hundreds literally of incidences wherea firearm was needed.

With that said, in the last 50 years to the present day, cite some incidences where a lawful civilian who was armed with say 8 rounds or less was seriously injured or killed because they ran out of ammo. I respectfully ask that you really answer this question. If you can list some you may change my mind.

That's the difference and why I choose to carry a gun and don't become obsessive compulsive about capacity...

You mistakenly assume anyone who chooses to be more prepared from you is obsessive and compulsive.

Do you know what the odds of a lawful citizen ever needing a gun to defend yourself are ? I'll give you a hint. Your odds of hitting the Powerball are similar.

 

[Bassbob]

So.

First off, carry what makes you feel comfortable; because the odds are, that’s the only thing you will ever need it for—comfort. The odds of you needing it, as stated earlier, are infinitesimally low…and needing more than 2-3 rounds are even lower.

I’m comfortable with 5 rounds; sure, I’ll carry a speed strip or two, but I have no problem admitting the odds of needing/using them are low.

I don’t buy into the whole “group effect” argument in favor of having many rounds on tap; mainly because of you ever watch one of those situations…when rounds start flying, people run away from the shooting.

Fact is, if you are worried that you won’t have enough ammo for a gunfight, there are hundreds, if not thousands of things more likely to kill you by orders of magnitude…worry about your diet, those extra pounds you’re carrying, cigarettes, sugar intake…driving safely…because those factors are what are most likely to kill you.

Not a lack of ammo.

Not worried Hans. As I said, even though I am probably one of the more experienced non LEO here with regards to being shot at ( 3 times in the last 10 years) I am under no illusion that it is very likely I will need a gun, much less a gun and a couple extra mags.

It's really more that I feel the need to be prepared as much as I possibly can. I carry what I can comfortably conceal because, well, what if ? The odds of me, a lawful citizen, being shot at are pretty small, yet it has happened several times. I have had friends shot to death.

Mags fail. Mags fall. Things that are highly unlikely to happen, DO happen. It doesn't cost me anything to be prepared.

You will all be proud to know that today while out and about I carried a Shield .45 with an extended mag and no spares. I was not worried.

 

[WellArmed]

You mistakenly assume anyone who chooses to be more prepared from you is obsessive and compulsive.

Do you know what the odds of a lawful citizen ever needing a gun to defend yourself are ? I'll give you a hint. Your odds of hitting the Powerball are similar.

You have to admit that some or even many do obsess over capacity. You're also reiterating a point I already addressed. You also never answered my question.

If I challenged you point to cases where a lawful civilian needed a gun for self defense, you'd have no problems citing cases and you actually would have answered my question. Respectfully, when I challenged you to cite cases over the past several decades where a civilian armed with less than 8 rounds was seriously injure or died because they ran out of ammo, you conveniently ignored the question.

Whether the odds of ever needing a gun is low or not, I've seen real life cases where a guns were needed to save lives. I have NOT seen simular type of data to support the argument for why capacity should be as big of a deal and requirement that many on the inet make it out to be. Therefore in my opinion capacity really isn't all that important. That said, I have no issues with those who choose to carry more ammo.

 

[Onewolf426]

Well, I think everything depends on the scenario you are in. If Rittenhouse taught us anything, it is that pack animals are emboldened with numbers. The thing that should give everyone pause, is the fact that he was openly carrying an AR15, and they attacked him with no fear. One actually grabbed it to disarm him. The crowd didn't scatter when he fired in self defense. We are not in normal times, there are no "normal" scenarios. Yes, situational awareness is paramount, but what happens if everything goes sideways in an instant?
Pack animals are emboldened in their numbers. So, capacity does matter, or having extra mags or speed strips. Placement does matter, but it is going to take quite a thinning of the herd before the rest will finally break.

 

[Bassbob]

You have to admit that some or even many do obsess over capacity. You're also reiterating a point I already addressed. You also never answered my question.

If I challenged you point to cases where a lawful civilian needed a gun for self defense, you'd have no problems citing cases and you actually would have answered my question. Respectfully, when I challenged you to cite cases over the past several decades where a civilian armed with less than 8 rounds was seriously injure or died because they ran out of ammo, you conveniently ignored the question.

Whether the odds of ever needing a gun is low or not, I've seen real life cases where a guns were needed to save lives. I have NOT seen simular type of data to support the argument for why capacity should be as big of a deal and requirement that many on the inet make it out to be. Therefore in my opinion capacity really isn't all that important. That said, I have no issues with those who choose to carry more ammo.

Actually I can't think of any cases where people had to use a gun to defend themselves ( other than my own or my two friends who were shot to death) that I can cite off the top of my head. I guess the guy that stopped that shooter in the mall in Alabama.

Nevertheless, if you think it never happens you are deluding yourself. In most major cities, including mine, thugs run in packs. Street gang activity is up pretty good the last few years.

Seems there was a dumbass kid in Kenosha who needed more than one round to defend himself against multiple attackers not that long ago. I work in St. Louis. We have riots here sometimes. Some even made national headlines. I had to drive home through that more than once.

Like I said, not obsessed, just like to be prepared. And certainly not telling anyone else what they should carry.

 

[WellArmed]

Actually I can't think of any cases where people had to use a gun to defend themselves ( other than my own or my two friends who were shot to death) that I can cite off the top of my head. I guess the guy that stopped that shooter in the mall in Alabama.

Nevertheless, if you think it never happens you are deluding yourself. In most major cities, including mine, thugs run in packs. Street gang activity is up pretty good the last few years.

Seems there was a dumbass kid in Kenosha who needed more than one round to defend himself against multiple attackers not that long ago. I work in St. Louis. We have riots here sometimes. Some even made national headlines. I had to drive home through that more than once.

Like I said, not obsessed, just like to be prepared. And certainly not telling anyone else what they should carry.

Seriously? There are cases regularly and often where people citizens have used a firearm to defend themselves. These cases are even often brought up on firearm forums and there are even popular YouTube channels dedicated to showcasing them that I am sure you know about. Stop it already. I'm sure that if you were debating with an antigun person, you would have at least Google and listed several cases. I'm not buying that the mall shooting was the first you heard of. Even then, at least you heard of one whereas you haven't heard of any were someone was killed or injured because they ran out of ammo.

As far as me being "delusional" goes, it's "delusional" to assert that something is happening when you don't even have one anecdotal case to point to in the age of the inet, social media, and anything and everything being discussed and caught on camera in real time. That's "delusional." That's the same type of arguments and logic antis use when they speak out against carrying firearms in public etc. That there will be like " the wild wild west" all the while disregarding the FACT that other free state have open carry and even constitutional carry with less crime than there states. I deal in reality and with facts. I don't assume something is happening when I have zero evidence to back that up.

You can point to cases where more than two rounds were fired, but you can't qualify your argument by pointing to even one case in the past decades where someone EDCing 8 or less rounds resulted in a negative outcome.

 

[Bassbob]

Seriously? There are cases regularly and often where people citizens have used a firearm to defend themselves. These cases are even often brought up on firearm forums and there are even popular YouTube channels dedicated to showcasing them that I am sure you know about. Stop it already. I'm sure that if you were debating with an antigun person, you would have Google and listed several cases.

As far as me being "delusional" goes, it's "delusional" to assert that something is happening when you don't even have one anecdotal case to point to in the age of the inet, social media, and anything and everything being discussed and caught on camera in real time.

You can point to cases where more than two rounds were fired, but you can't qualify your argument by pointing to even one case in the past decades where someone EDCing 8 or less rounds resulted in a negative outcome.

I said I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Seems you really like to argue dude. All I did was state my opinion. As a guy that has been shot at a few times I am comfortable carrying what I carry. You do you, but if you are using data and statistics to justify what you're doing you might as well be pissing up a rope because as I said, STATISTICALLY it is almost certain YOU will never have to use a gun in self defense. And frankly I don't give a F what you carry man.

Here is one case for you though. My best friend. Navy, stationed at Scott AFB. 2002 E. St. Louis. Shot to death by 3 teenage gang bangers. He had no gun. If you had any F'ing reading comprehension you would remember that I told you if you think that never happens you are delusional. And you are. Because it happens all the time. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it don't happen. I just gave you two examples. Now , Mr. Well Armed ( with 5 bullets) go argue with someone who gives a F what you think.

 

[WellArmed]

I said I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Seems you really like to argue dude. All I did was state my opinion. As a guy that has been shot at a few times I am comfortable carrying what I carry. You do you, but if you are using data and statistics to justify what you're doing you might as well be pissing up a rope because as I said, STATISTICALLY it is almost certain YOU will never have to use a gun in self defense. And frankly I don't give a F what you carry man.

Here is one case for you though. My best friend. Navy, stationed at Scott AFB. 2002 E. St. Louis. Shot to death by 3 teenage gang bangers. He had no gun. If you had any F'ing reading comprehension you would remember that I told you if you think that never happens you are delusional. And you are. Because it happens all the time. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it don't happen. I just gave you two examples. Now , Mr. Well Armed ( with 5 bullets) go argue with someone who gives a F what you think.

I have been stating my opinion just like you. You replied to me first and I rebuttaled, but I " just like to argue?" I simply stated my opinion on the OP orginally, and wasn't arguing with anyone. I even stated I don't have an issue with those who personally believe otherwise.

You have become passive aggressive more and more with each post of mine where I counter your argument with facts and my opinions. With your last post, you've become personal and attempt to insult me and my intelligence. The purpose of forums like this is to sometimes debate and argue difference of opinions by the way. You had a difference of opinion than mine, so you responded and I did the same. I guess you like to argue too then?

If you can't think of one instance off the top of your head, then you should and could have took 1 minutes to Google which would should several recent instances. The fact is I looked and did the research, and you admittedly did not. I'm stating my opinion based on facts of real life situation that actually happen, and you're basing your opinion on what you think happens but don't know of any cases to prove that it's actually happening. If it happens all the time, then you should be able to point to a cases where it in fact actually happened without using "what ifs" as evidence.

 

[SimonRL]

You must have got a bum one because the only striker fired trigger better than the one on my VP9 is the one on my Q5. And the reset is 1000 times better than the reset on the P30L.

To be honest, I only notice the reset when I’m dry firing. Went to the range tonight this is the VP9 at 10 yds, 15rds

This is the same with the Long Slide.

 

[Bassbob]

You can't find one instance where someone was attacked by multiple attackers ? You ain't looking real hard then.

Since you've done the research, tell me what the percentages are of people being attacked by a single attacker compared to multiple attackers. If you're comfortable facing multiple attackers with 5 rounds good for you. I'm more comfortable with 18.

Show me a situation where having too much ammo got someone killed.

Since you deal in facts and do your research, put your gun in your sock drawer and quit worrying about ammo because you will never need either.

 

[WellArmed]

You can't find one instance where someone was attacked by multiple attackers ? You ain't looking real hard then.

Since you've done the research, tell me what the percentages are of people being attacked by a single attacker compared to multiple attackers. If you're comfortable facing multiple attackers with 5 rounds good for you. I'm more comfortable with 18.

Show me a situation where having too much ammo got someone killed.

Since you deal in facts and do your research, put your gun in your sock drawer and quit worrying about ammo because you will never need either.

Now you are purposely moving the goal post, and trying to change the argument. The OP isn't whether civilians have been attacked by multiple attackers or not. I also never once started anything about that topic either way. I never stated that didn't happen. The topic is whether capacity is important. My opinion is that it's not because I can not point to even one case in decades where lack of capacity had an ill affect when it came to civilian firearm owners. Not even one. Even if regular citizens have been attacked by multiple attackers, I can't and you can't cite an instance where a civilian with 8 or less rounds died as a result of running out of ammo.

Then I gave you the opportunity to change my mind by citing cases. If you did, I'd agree with you and might have changed my mind. We just see things differently. I look at what actually happens, and you think in terms of what could possibly happen or what you assume is happening even if and when you have no data or hard proof. Either way, I AM NOT AGAINST THOSE WHO THINK THE WAY YOU DO. I'm simply saying how I see things and why I do whatvI do.

 

[ECS686]

"Is Capacity Still Important?"

TL/DR Maybe.

I'm a firm believer that you should carry whatever you're comfortable carrying.

Having said that. according to the CDC.

In 2021, the most recent year for which complete data is available, 48,830 people died from gun-related injuries in the U.S., according to the CDC. That figure includes gun murders and gun suicides,

49,000 in a country of 340 million people? Your odds of being involved in a shooting in America are right up there with winning the lottery.

80% of the murders that are committed in this country involving a firearm are committed by somebody who already has a prior felony conviction. And most of the time they're killing another Criminal( FBI Uniform Crime Report)

According to the Kleck study 90% of Citizen involved self-defense incidents and with no shots fired.

I had a friend who worked as a police officer and then after retirement from the police department as a magistrate in South Carolina.

Across the span of both of his careers he investigated or adjudicated 200 homicides. Of those 200 he stated that ONE of them involved more than eight shots being fired among all parties involved.

According to him the one involved the killer standing over the corpse and emptying his magazine into it.

I have been a witness to (as opposed to a participant in) four shooting incidents in my lifetime. None of them lasted longer than 30 seconds . None of them involved more than 10 rounds being fired. And all four of them by the time I got myself behind some good hard cover it was over.

So given that most of us aren't even going to fire the first shot ever I have to say that there are things way more important than capacity.

^^^THIS^^^

Do we really need half the things we have now (satellite radio, heated seats, back up cameras yada yada)
In a 36 year LE and Training career I have observed similar outcomes. But funny when you share what YOU or something from someone that YOU KNOW have/has experienced folks still want to argue.

If you want a high cap great there are a ton of options but outside a USPSA match I’m putting money on not. Everyone is good at getting fixated in the Onesie cases and not the 99% of what really happens but since a lot of folks always thinks they are the exception on everything here we are!!

In retirement I work the private sector as a Firearms Trainer and get to see and interact with some from the retail side and I see a lot of folks so wrapped around the axel on the mag capacity they argue because a gun has 17 round mags instead of an 18. My Son bought me a SIG 226 Legion as a Retirement present since I carried SIGs for most of my career and I even heard folks complain because they came with 15 round magazines instead of 17 or 18. If a 17 round mags makes a difference that a 15 round wouldn’t for you you live a very interesting life or are way full of yourself.

Also if someone runs a 10, 12 or a 15 round mag dry in a shooting I want to see your statement to the police!

 

[ECS686]

You can't find one instance where someone was attacked by multiple attackers ? You ain't looking real hard then.

Since you've done the research, tell me what the percentages are of people being attacked by a single attacker compared to multiple attackers. If you're comfortable facing multiple attackers with 5 rounds good for you. I'm more comfortable with 18.

Show me a situation where having too much ammo got someone killed.

Since you deal in facts and do your research, put your gun in your sock drawer and quit worrying about ammo because you will never need either.

Bob respectfully if you have multiple committed attackers wether 12,15 or 18 rounds in your gun you’re going to run out of time before you run out of ammo. You either stop the threat (most will vacate when your shooting starts wether you hit BG#1 or not the flee) or you yourself are disabled.

Fortunately in a situation when you see multiple BG’s (like say a home invasion) there is normally one ring leader and they are the first one in and they are sort of like a SWAT team and count on that whole speed surprise violence of action. But multiple video shows whether here if in other countries when they get shot at their heart isn’t in it they flee like cockroaches.

So unless you’re the target of a sanctioned cartel or a Gangland or Mafia hit list the average street thug isn’t that committed or organized.

 

[Bassbob]

Bob respectfully if you have multiple committed attackers wether 12,15 or 18 rounds in your gun you’re going to run out of time before you run out of ammo. You either stop the threat (most will vacate when your shooting starts wether you hit BG#1 or not the flee) or you yourself are disabled.

Fortunately in a situation when you see multiple BG’s (like say a home invasion) there is normally one ring leader and they are the first one in and they are sort of like a SWAT team and count on that whole speed surprise violence of action. But multiple video shows whether here if in other countries when they get shot at their heart isn’t in it they flee like cockroaches.

So unless you’re the target of a sanctioned cartel or a Gangland or Mafia hit list the average street thug isn’t that committed or organized.

Yeah, probably. But then you probably aren't going to have multiple attackers or even one attacker. So play the odds if you want to, that's a personal decision.

How many people here witnessed mobs of people "Peacefully protesting" in 2020 or any other time first hand ? I did. The world is changing. Rapidly. How many of the people here in this thread who are making the case for no extra mags or large capacity are also storing food, hoarding ammo, have go bags or get home bags or any other "Prepper" ? Someone care to explain to me how you can rely on statistics that say you are unlikely to need more than 3 rounds, yet still actively prepare for the grid to go down or another "Plandemic" with even worse results. Stores running out of food and having to defend your food stores from your neighbors, etc.. ?

If you have a go bag or a get home bag and are making the case for no extra ammo ????????


Again, with all due respect AND APOLOGIES to Anni, Hans and Well Armed, I don't care what other people do or carry. You can quote statistics until the cows come home and that's fine with me. Those statistics didn't hold water when I had 15 rounds of .45 ACP flying at me, missing me by less than a foot. They didn't hold water when the guy walking down the street decided he wanted to kill some white people and murdered one of my oldest friends, Billy Froelich and my gasman ( laborer) Alex Boschert, who were in my truck, on my job covering for me when my brother died. They didn't hold up when less than 20 yards from me I watched a guy in a hoodie gun down a kid who was running away from him, and then stand over his body and dump 8 more rounds into him and then casually stroll away. And they didn't hold up when my best friend, Petty Officer first class Robert Stogsdill was gunned down by three armed teenagers in E. St. Louis.


Everything ain't for everybody.

 

[Sld1959]

Everyone has to run risk assessment on thier lives, thier situation, and decide what they are comfortable with. There are no cookie cutter solutions, nor no right or wrong answers to most choices, this one included.

I, am comfortable carrying a jframe revolver for the vast majority of my carry, and I do recommend when asked that one carry at least one reload for WHATEVER one carries. Be it jframe revolver or 20 round semi auto. Too much in life can happen that might make one need that insurance. Most often the accidental lose of magazine in my experience but that's another topic.

I am a retired gentleman living in the country, the nearest city is really pretty sedate. I seldom travel to places like Detroit, Flint, or Lansing, two of which were on the latest most dangerous city list I saw, and the third was on the list prior.

I feel little risk on my ventures to town, even in the past 3 years of unrest. I did hear of two fist fights in the grocery store over water and or tp. No riots, or any anthing that caused concern.

This is where I planned to retire to, for just these reasons, a nice quiet life. Which is not to say I am unprepared for anything, more. I have long arm options in the house and in the back shed ready to roll, just in case. Hell i even have real swords and Zulu spears on the wall and have trained with them. I do carry pistols with more on board on the occasions I do travel into a major area such as when I take my wife to a Dr in Troy, or visit my daughter in Northville. I even specifically bought a P365 xl for just such occasions. I also carry a GHB in my vehicles when I leave the house, this includes a Makarov with 4 spare magazines.

I am not walking blindly thru turbulent tines and do not consider myself an easy target.

I just have looked very closely at my life, my situation that I have purposefully set up and am ok with 5 rounds on board. And yes as I sit here on a Sunday morning drinking hot cocoa there is a .357 magnum within a foot of my arm, just in case. Yep, it's only 5 rounds but what a 5 rounds...

Everyone must find thier comfort level and live within it, and no one, has the right, or knowledge to tell them they are wrong, unless they are living in their underwear.

So, is capacity important, it is if it is to you, importance is judged by each individual, whatever you deem is important is just that, to you. The only darn person it matters to.

Just an opinion.

 

[Belt Fed]

Me and ole Barny keep practicing. were ready for any situation.

 

[Keystone19250]

Everyone has to run risk assessment on thier lives, thier situation, and decide what they are comfortable with. There are no cookie cutter solutions, nor no right or wrong answers to most choices, this one included.

Exactly, well said.

 

[ddeuce22]

Man this got ugly fast.

 

[The Night Rider]

Do we really need ...heated seats,

OMG , yes! We absolutely need heated seats.

If for no other reason than to turn them on when you get out of the gym and have a heating pad on your back all the way home.

 

[The Night Rider]

Yeah, probably. But then you probably aren't going to have multiple attackers or even one attacker. So play the odds if you want to, that's a personal decision.

How many people here witnessed mobs of people "Peacefully protesting" in 2020 or any other time first hand ? I did. The world is changing. Rapidly. How many of the people here in this thread who are making the case for no extra mags or large capacity are also storing food, hoarding ammo, have go bags or get home bags or any other "Prepper" ? Someone care to explain to me how you can rely on statistics that say you are unlikely to need more than 3 rounds, yet still actively prepare for the grid to go down or another "Plandemic" with even worse results. Stores running out of food and having to defend your food stores from your neighbors, etc.. ?

If you have a go bag or a get home bag and are making the case for no extra ammo ????????

1. I always carry at least one reload on me. More for (potential) malfunctions than the idea that I'll ever actually need that much ammunition but I do carry at least one reload on me.

2. I've stated this before but in my entire life and specifically since 2007 when I got my concealed handgun permit I have never fired a single shot in self-defense.

I have used OC (or the threat of OC) more than once but even that was directly related to my working as a security guard and it was always in positions that I wouldn't have been in had I not been working as a security guard.

I said it in my first and second post you can structure your life in such a way that your odds of being involved in a violent crime are almost nil. I mean, really demographics does it for most of us anyway.

But I have seen Walmart with empty shelves, more than once. I have been hearing about supply chain issues and Just In Time stocking for going on 3 years now.

I have seen a couple of cities even a couple in Colorado where they had to shut down the municipal water system because of contaminants in the water. I've also seen too many of those Camp LeJune commercials to ever fully trust a Municipal Water Source

I do have two parents (now deceased) who grew up during the depression.

I do have two grandparents* (also now deceased) who never threw away anything useful because they had to raise a family and feed a family during the Depression. They taught me well.

My paternal grandfather murdered my paternal grandmother and vanished when my father was 8 years old. No one knows whatever happened to him.