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Is Constitutional Carry a Mistake?

BigEwon said:
Let me offer an Alternative view / title.

"Constitutional Carry Comes with Responsibility of Training, How can the Government (who protects our rights) help?"

Instead of a permitting body, change it to a training body. The Gov't could povide tax rebates (or incentives) to gun owners who seek training at Ranges, Lessons, etc..... Hell, you could allot $25 to $50/month to the 100M gun owners and cost about $30B t0 $60B/year; in the Federal Budget. For a trained Populous, this is a steal!

The key to all Freedoms is responsibility and training. If we offer it, most (no all) will seek it out. The criminals, mentally ill, and irresponsible people may not. However, Good Training / Education always pays dividends and I believe that private industry delivers better than the Public state (who sets the standards)....

$0.02
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This sound great at first glance. However. The Gov. gives nothing without string attached. (to the taxpayer at least, they will give beaucoup $ to tin pot dictators with no accountability 🤬) Before you could bat an eyelash there would be a skinny million strings attached starting with yet another list of who's got way and where, what acceptable and what isn't and if it isn't acceptable, what do you "need it for". Then training will turn into testing, and testing will turn into a document proving that you had the training. Add to that I don't want to pay for your training any more than I want to pay off the loans you took out to spend four or more years in organized grab @$$.:mad: Lastly and most importantly It's not the Gov. job, responsibility, to train everyone in firearms and the G.D. Gov. needs to stay in it's own lane. Unless you want compulsory military service for everyone, questionable at the best of times, and under the current leadership of jack wagons in the military, you can damn sure bet you would receive more sensitivity than firearms training.

"However, Good Training / Education always pays dividends and I believe that private industry delivers better than the Public state (who sets the standards)...." (y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y)(y) spot on!
 
Agree with the idea and value of Constitutional Carry. I'm just not sure why it's an issue that hasn't already been addressed....as I believe it is more than adequately addressed in the Constitution as it stands today.
Article IV, Section 1, states that Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to public Act, Records, and judicial proceedings of every other State......
Since conceal carry permits are granted by the judicial system (at least in Virginia), this section of thew Constitution would appear to apply. We really do have to read the whole Constitution, not just the Second Amendment.
 
Bob Henry said:
I agree with constitutional carry, we have the right, however if you live in Texas you have seen the signs posted at convenience stores, businesses, etc, that say "The UNLICENSED possession of a firearm on this premises is against the law". I interpret that to mean that you cannot carry on that property without a license, and constitutional carry would not be a defense to prosecution. Just an observation. I have a license, I trained, and I can carry anywhere legal. Think about it when deciding to only go with constitutional carry.
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Constitutional Carry is great but for my purposes I still maintain my license, portability being at the top of the list. I also live in Texas and noticed after the carry bill passed there were several businesses that didn't allow carry, changed to licensed carry and some stayed no carry. It is a strange dynamic to own and carry a firearm (shouldn't be) as we navigate the maze of laws. The loss of the expectations of Responsibility and Accountability in our Society only adds to the issue. Neither can be legislated (although tried with futility) but must be taught which is where the shortcomings start. Train, Carry, and protect seems simple to me.
 
Hi,

Old Airborne Dog said:
Overriding all of the article is the patchwork quilt of gun laws across this country. If you don't want to potentially experience the joys and cost of court time... know before you go.

Here in Montana, I can open carry or carry concealed. Sometimes I do open carry but mostly I do not. In the warm months, a shirt over an OWB holster; occasionally some may see parts of the muzzle - this is Montana, I don't care. Outside of Montana where there is no open carry, then I will very much care and ensure complete concealment.

I do have a CC license - but it is from Washington state were we occasionally go to the eastern parts bird hunting. I don't need that permit with my usual life here in Montana or next door about an hour away in Idaho... but my common sense says having that CC license from WA is a good thing. And the Washington CC license is accepted in all but the most draconian states that allow CC - Montana's isn't.

Do I believe the author that having that Washington CC permit will magically get LEOs to cut me some slack? No, I do not. Not more than they're going to cut me slack because my license plates show I'm a paratrooper veteran. Might get me a nice parking spot close to the front doors of some businesses that they reserve for veterans, but that's about it.

I spent 40 years divided between street policing and jumping out of airplanes for a living. I was assigned as a small arms trainer and RSO most of that time in both uniforms. And like mostothers like me, that happened because those running the circus knew I enjoyed shooting, didn't cry about teaching, and did a good job of teaching and training my brothers and sisters in uniform.

That said, I am not impressed when anyone starts lauding military/police training as somehow or better than a lifetime civilian who never spent the money on a CC style course when that was not required, or before open carrying.

Like most in my position, I could probably write a book on the stupid, dangerous, and completely irrational things I have seen trained LEOs and military do in my view, on and off the range and at work with fangs out due to a threat. Two of them had negligent discharges that came close to hitting me. That has yet to happen to me at any public range I have gone to. Of course they happen at those ranges - but they happened to me while in uniform, not at a public range.

In short, a LOT of assumptions are being made here and there, as well as a lot of attempting to use the exceptions to prove the rule. Including what seems to be an assumption that if a person is in the military or police, their training is good and they are current in that training. There are many situations where the training is weak and they rarely are required to go to the range. The only certainty for those armed and in uniform is that when their job definitely requires them to go into harms way in places that are known to be dangerous, the required level of training and currency on training goes up for both police and the military.

In general, the gun carrying law abiding public is responsible and no more likely to negligently or deliberately harm an innocent person with a firearm than the cop or military person you could be working beside the rest of the time.

If that gun carrying law abiding law abiding gun owning public had the same rate of carelessly/criminally injuring and killing others as Americans do exercising their driver's license rather than Second Amendment, the indifference to mandatory training we show for driving would disappear to have mandatory firearms training as fast as politicians could make that happen.

I am pretty enthusiastic about self-initiated voluntary firearms training for myself and for others. Why would you NOT want to do something that is fun like shooting? Why would you NOT want to train; I assume the reason you carry is because you believe you may have to use that gun to defend your life?

That said, I would love to see governments offer inducements to obtain meaningful quality training/qualification and would adamantly oppose any government requirement for training before exercising ANY constitutional right.
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I appreciate your views. Thank you for your service. Welcome to the forum.

I used to jump out of airplanes too, but for sport, not my job. ;)



Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
BassCliff said:
Hi,



I appreciate your views. Thank you for your service. Welcome to the forum.

I used to jump out of airplanes too, but for sport, not my job. ;)



Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
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We once in a while used to get a look at something like that doing Hollywood jumps i.e. no equipment other than main and reserve.

Nice to not have another 100+ lbs strapped to your ass. Sometimes we even got to do one of those higher than 1,000' AGL...
 
Bassbob said:
Also, I know for a fact that I personally and I'd venture to say a great many of our members here have more hours of training than a lot of cops do. And I have trained and shot with many, many cops who have almost no clue what the hell they're doing. I have also shot with many, many cops that do, but I digress.
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As a retired agency instructor but current private sector instructor here is what I see as far as LE vs y in abilities.

The majority of LE are better with firearms than the majority of average Gun Owners. However by average gun owners we are talking folks that own a gun or 2 but are lucky to shoot it. They aren’t on firearms related forums going to training or matches etc a gun is their fire extinguisher

Where LEO’s can’t compete is gun enthusiasts like folks on this or other forums or those that take professional private sector classes and go to matches. I have raked fellow LEOs that thought they were a gun guy to a USPSA match and he got smoked by a 17 year old girl.

So while some average cops are horrible so are average civilians as those are the ones some here have mentioned at ranges muzzle sweeping them etc
 
ECS686 said:
As a retired agency instructor but current private sector instructor here is what I see as far as LE vs y in abilities.

The majority of LE are better with firearms than the majority of average Gun Owners. However by average gun owners we are talking folks that own a gun or 2 but are lucky to shoot it. They aren’t on firearms related forums going to training or matches etc a gun is their fire extinguisher

Where LEO’s can’t compete is gun enthusiasts like folks on this or other forums or those that take professional private sector classes and go to matches. I have raked fellow LEOs that thought they were a gun guy to a USPSA match and he got smoked by a 17 year old girl.

So while some average cops are horrible so are average civilians as those are the ones some here have mentioned at ranges muzzle sweeping them etc
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Fair point.

On the other hand I also know quite a few cops who actually are gun guys and take it upon themselves to train outside of their agency. Many of my friends in fact.

It’s also worth noting that the kind of training we do isn’t really the same kind of training they do. The gun stuff is close to the same, but they have way different ROE and they train for lots of stuff we will never need to do.
 
Bassbob said:
Fair point.

On the other hand I also know quite a few cops who actually are gun guys and take it upon themselves to train outside of their agency. Many of my friends in fact.

It’s also worth noting that the kind of training we do isn’t really the same kind of training they do. The gun stuff is close to the same, but they have way different ROE and they train for lots of stuff we will never need to do.
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In LE I saw a 10% 80% 10% breakdown.

The top 10 are the top shooters and like you mention they practice and go to training on their own time and dime.

The 80% were the majority and while some of them were upper scores the majority where the ones that barely passed and quipped “good enough til next year” and never touched it again other than putting it in a holster

Then the bottom 10 is what causes Unions and agencies to dumb down courses.

The 80% being the bulk is what we have some shootings that turn into utter abortion they shoot a minimum score and huge targets and then nobody can figure out why they hit the perp 1 or 2 times out of a mag dump!

Which what’s funny is as Chick Haggard mentioned the USAF doesn’t require F22 pilots to go get their Cessna license to keep their flight hours up for practice

They don’t require any of their Special Forces to buy their own ammo and shoot on their off time to keep up their skills

But here LE just checks a box and acts surprised when a problem pops up!!!
 
Hey!

Old Airborne Dog said:
We once in a while used to get a look at something like that doing Hollywood jumps i.e. no equipment other than main and reserve.

Nice to not have another 100+ lbs strapped to your ass. Sometimes we even got to do one of those higher than 1,000' AGL...
Click to expand...

I've never jumped that low, a "jump and dump". Rules are a bit different for sport jumping. I usually jumped from 13,000 feet, a minute's worth of freefall. Fun stuff! I did jump from the minimum altitude a couple times, 3500 feet, when I jumped from a hot air balloon. That was a blast! Stepping off what is basically a stationary platform, you really get that "whoopsie-daisy!" feeling in the pit of your stomach. But I can't imagine what it would be like with guns, ammo, rations, tools, etc, strapped to my person. I still miss it.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
BassCliff said:
Hey!



I've never jumped that low, a "jump and dump". Rules are a bit different for sport jumping. I usually jumped from 13,000 feet, a minute's worth of freefall. Fun stuff! I did jump from the minimum altitude a couple times, 3500 feet, when I jumped from a hot air balloon. That was a blast! Stepping off what is basically a stationary platform, you really get that "whoopsie-daisy!" feeling in the pit of your stomach. But I can't imagine what it would be like with guns, ammo, rations, tools, etc, strapped to my person. I still miss it.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
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If you're looking to get back into jumping, I know 3 clubs in the greater Milwaukee area that still operate (it's a dwindling hobby...there used to be 10 in the region). I'm not a jumper, but my father was a pilot (and a jumper) and piloted jump planes in his spare time many years ago...
 
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