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Manual Safety or Not: Too Dangerous To Carry?

stuartv said:
Have you ever taken a class in Human Factors? Or even read anything semi-formal on the subject?

Anyway.... I will fall back on the old "appeal to authority" argument.

The top practical pistol competition shooters in the world pretty much all shoot 2011s (in the competition divisions where they are allowed). Maybe not ALL, but pretty much all. And they pretty much all have the grip safety pinned. Do you think you train as much as they do? Do you think normal schmoes who carry concealed for self-defense are going to train as much (and as well) as they do?

And why do those guys have their grip safeties pinned? If you can actually train it out 100%, then why would any of them EVER need to have their grip safety pinned?

The idea that you can train something - ANYTHING - out to the point of literal 100% reliability, in a high-stress situation, where you may even be using one hand to fend off an attacker is what is ludicrous here. Basically, what you are claiming is that you can train well and then NEVER make a mistake. Ludicrous.
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Stuart, Respectfully I’m nobody’s mouthpiece but where Did Bassbob state 100%?

If people can be trained to do something than the same people can be trained to stop doing something. As an instructor you do that every day. You train folks to not move the gun when they shoot, not anticipate, use a different or more effective grip than their uncle taught them etc etc

So working or not working a manual safety is the same thing. Like always it’s up to the person. The same thing goes on with folks throwing $400 red dots on their pistols. Some practice to master it most so not!

Like many of us said training can “train” it out but not all the time. Like proficiency it depends on the person and their commitment.

And comparing Competition shooters to a Civilian CCW or LE is apples to oranges. And a lot more than a pinned safety (which I haven’t seen since the early 2000’s with al the divisions in USPSA now) Competition is technical and CCW/LE is Application two totally different things.

Competition you get a 5 min walk through get to choreograph your shots and reloads and each target gets at least 2 rounds with no penalty misses or follow up shots.

CCW/LE you have to legally justify each shot but more importantly you don’t get a walkthrough. And in a CCW you have normal earth people gear and guns.

And while in LE or Military while you know you have an increased risk a lot of times I was involved in something or shot several folks with less lethal trust me it was a surprise as many times as it was not. We don’t/can’t run around aiming guns or less lethal things at everyone like we did back in the 1980’s

This whole thread reminds me of the “Is it a slide stop or slide release.” That also depends on the gun and the shooter. Some slide stops work great as slide releases some don’t. Same as the shooter.

Again just respectfully discussing
 
Wirenut said:
Wow !!
Eight pages and five days..
Shoulda made popcorn
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He came in grand style ….
1664236657406.gif
 
stuartv said:
Have you ever taken a class in Human Factors? Or even read anything semi-formal on the subject?

Anyway.... I will fall back on the old "appeal to authority" argument.

The top practical pistol competition shooters in the world pretty much all shoot 2011s (in the competition divisions where they are allowed). Maybe not ALL, but pretty much all. And they pretty much all have the grip safety pinned. Do you think you train as much as they do? Do you think normal schmoes who carry concealed for self-defense are going to train as much (and as well) as they do?

And why do those guys have their grip safeties pinned? If you can actually train it out 100%, then why would any of them EVER need to have their grip safety pinned?

The idea that you can train something - ANYTHING - out to the point of literal 100% reliability, in a high-stress situation, where you may even be using one hand to fend off an attacker is what is ludicrous here. Basically, what you are claiming is that you can train well and then NEVER make a mistake. Ludicrous.
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Never make a mistake? Are you listening to yourself and then thinking about what the subject matter is ? You can't 100% train out negligent discharges either but there you are, suggesting everyone sell their guns with thumb safeties and buy a Glock. Your argument makes no sense, especially considering that before there was such a thing as striker fired carry guns almost everyone on the planet carried guns with safeties. Why don't you show us some statistics that back up your assertion that it will get you killed? Let's have some examples. I can give you plenty of examples of people shooting themselves with their Glocks. Hell, I know a cop who was "Practicing his draw" and shot himself in the leg just a few months ago.

And competition shooters ? You realize that's all about times right? Microseconds count. And yeah, I almost guarantee most of the people here train for concealed carry more than competition shooters do. Because they are training for competitions. They are 2 different things. You understand that right. The top competition shooters in the world don't train relentlessly on tactics and situational awareness, escalation, de-escalation, Identify, assess, react to a threat, etc..

Anyway brother, I never said anything was 100%. The fact remains that when your life is on the line or your wife's life is on the line and some armed jackass is threatening you all the crap you read and thought and imagined when you were watching John Wick go out the window. The ONLY thing left is your training. So train how you fight, regardless of whether that involves slipping a safety off on your draw stroke.
 
Bassbob said:
Never make a mistake? Are you listening to yourself and then thinking about what the subject matter is ? You can't 100% train out negligent discharges either but there you are, suggesting everyone sell their guns with thumb safeties and buy a Glock. Your argument makes no sense, especially considering that before there was such a thing as striker fired carry guns almost everyone on the planet carried guns with safeties. Why don't you show us some statistics that back up your assertion that it will get you killed? Let's have some examples. I can give you plenty of examples of people shooting themselves with their Glocks. Hell, I know a cop who was "Practicing his draw" and shot himself in the leg just a few months ago.

And competition shooters ? You realize that's all about times right? Microseconds count. And yeah, I almost guarantee most of the people here train for concealed carry more than competition shooters do. Because they are training for competitions. They are 2 different things. You understand that right. The top competition shooters in the world don't train relentlessly on tactics and situational awareness, escalation, de-escalation, Identify, assess, react to a threat, etc..

Anyway brother, I never said anything was 100%. The fact remains that when your life is on the line or your wife's life is on the line and some armed jackass is threatening you all the crap you read and thought and imagined when you were watching John Wick go out the window. The ONLY thing left is your training. So train how you fight, regardless of whether that involves slipping a safety off on your draw stroke.
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Maybe he’s related to BubbaTime?
 
Keystone19250 said:
Maybe he’s related to BubbaTime?
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I've never spent so much time defending something I don't actually do. I personally don't like safeties on carry guns. And for many of the reasons both of those guys are arguing. The difference is I used to carry one and I trained for it. And trained hard. So I know it can be done. And either way I am not arrogant enough to pretend that I know YOU or ANYONE ELSE can't train for it. Mike Tyson trained relentlessly and in his prime he was un friggin stoppable. Until he wasn't. Nothing and no one can do anything 100%. It's a red herring or a Occams Razor or one of those GD things Hans would know what it's called.
 
Bassbob said:
Never make a mistake? Are you listening to yourself and then thinking about what the subject matter is ? You can't 100% train out negligent discharges either but there you are, suggesting everyone sell their guns with thumb safeties and buy a Glock. Your argument makes no sense, especially considering that before there was such a thing as striker fired carry guns almost everyone on the planet carried guns with safeties. Why don't you show us some statistics that back up your assertion that it will get you killed? Let's have some examples. I can give you plenty of examples of people shooting themselves with their Glocks. Hell, I know a cop who was "Practicing his draw" and shot himself in the leg just a few months ago.

And competition shooters ? You realize that's all about times right? Microseconds count. And yeah, I almost guarantee most of the people here train for concealed carry more than competition shooters do. Because they are training for competitions. They are 2 different things. You understand that right. The top competition shooters in the world don't train relentlessly on tactics and situational awareness, escalation, de-escalation, Identify, assess, react to a threat, etc..

Anyway brother, I never said anything was 100%. The fact remains that when your life is on the line or your wife's life is on the line and some armed jackass is threatening you all the crap you read and thought and imagined when you were watching John Wick go out the window. The ONLY thing left is your training. So train how you fight, regardless of whether that involves slipping a safety off on your draw stroke.
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🤣🤣🤣🤣
 
Meh. I carry both. Never had an issue with either way so far
But, I would be curious, how many documented issues of ND's from pistols lacking an actual, external, manual safety vs failure to fire due to a safety not properly clicked off (or grip safety not properly gripped).
On an interesting note, I just sold my XD 9 to help pay off the Hellcat Pro I bought. The guy that bought my XD called me yesterday to ask how I liked my Hellcat. Discussed it, then he asked if it had a grip safety. he Said he really prefers carry guns with grip safeties.
To each their own...
 
PAGunGuy said:
Meh. I carry both. Never had an issue with either way so far
But, I would be curious, how many documented issues of ND's from pistols lacking an actual, external, manual safety vs failure to fire due to a safety not properly clicked off (or grip safety not properly gripped).
On an interesting note, I just sold my XD 9 to help pay off the Hellcat Pro I bought. The guy that bought my XD called me yesterday to ask how I liked my Hellcat. Discussed it, then he asked if it had a grip safety. he Said he really prefers carry guns with grip safeties.
To each their own...
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Several but usually most of the documentation comes in the LE side. I’ll just say what’s old is new again referring to the recent reported spike in AD’s with Sig 320.

We were in the same place in the late 1980’s with Glocks. So much so that it was coined “Glock Leg” the issue was during the DA revolver and DA/SA or DAO autos the first DA pull was usually 12 pounds. And remember revolvers specifically holsters with exposed trigger guards back then weren’t uncommon.

Glocks come along with no hammer to feel and a 5 pound trigger someone mashed it in a holster with 20 pounds of force it’s not hard to figure out that ending.

So the 1911’s revolvers and DA/SA allowed folks to get by with bad habits.

So agencies like NYPD threw a 12 pound trigger in their Glocks and called that good. Others got better holsters and did better training to correct bad things.

Fast forward here we go again with folks blaming Sig 320 for the same stuff that is people induced (TX OK VA and OH state police agencies to name a few use Sigs 320 with no issues if Glock leg so it’s not the Sig)

As far as the flip side of manual faferies causing a gun not to shoot there’s a few instances on the LE side however I have witnessed a ton through the civilian side in matches and classes. Usually by new or mediocre or first time competitors to a match.

I have specifically had to teach a person to redo their grip on a Shield EZ because they didn’t grip it tight enough to disengage it (EX safeties pin at the bottom I like a 1911 or XD)

I’ve seen folks under recoil place their 1911 thumb safety on and it’s obvious because I 1 saw it and.2 they keep pulling on the trigger (usually emulating a gunfighter from a western except with no shots)

Just part of what I have seen since carrying a firearm agency wise since 1986 but I see new things every time I go on a range.
 
While the Manuel safety has its place this could very well be your demise if you have not logged many training hours especially under stress. You have to build that muscle memory without fail and it must be accomplished under stress. Those who do not train under those conditions are doing themselves a great dis-service. For example, if you are experiencing a stressful encounter and your heart rate exceeds 124 BPM you are heading for serious trouble. Tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and loss of fine motor skills will haunt you. So, will you remember to disengage the safety when someone is trying to kill you. Have you trained for this eventuality. If not, you should not carry this type of weapon. Be honest with yourself, this is your life or someone else's that you should be considering. In serving on a SWAT/counter terrorism team for 22 years I carried the 1911 almost exclusively except when mission parameters required a different handgun. Part of our initial training course was to fire 1000 rounds of just disengaging the safety under stress too build the muscle memory to ensure that this was always accomplished. One shot at a time for 1000 times. Once the operator displayed proficiency with this we moved on to other gunfighting drills and skill sets. Friends, here is the bottom line. You must put in the time with your weapon of choice to enhance winning the gunfight. The Manuel safety is one more motor skill you will have to perform under stress to deploy your weapon. If you are not absolutely positive in your ability to perform this under stress then carry another weapon. This will be one less thing you have to worry about in the gunfight. Remember, deadly force encounters can happen suddenly and without warning. A good operator trains for these scenarios to be victorious and you should too. TRAIN, BE SMART, THINK TACTICS
 
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