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Red Dot Sight Assistance

SMSgtRod said:
AT3 is headed back.... I really had high hopes. After each shot the laser would die.
Never could get the Red Dot to Zero.... so it's in the outgoing for pick up tomorrow.
Have to look and see what else is out there.... go over suggestions here.
Click to expand...

@SMSgtRod -

Can you give us an idea of your actual budget?

In your OP, the price variable between the items was drastic. And you ended up picking an item that was about $30 more than the high end of your OP. :)

If you can give an actual budget - and let us know if this budget includes the mount - I think we'll all be better able to help you, as there truly are excellent offerings at almost every price-point, although I will say, honestly, that I strongly recommend you look to spend at least $150, with this purchase.

Towards the latter, the Holoson-OE units for PA and others are great budget optics, and their higher-end stuff are actually receiving raves from high-profile industry figures who've had the chance to T&E such units for the past year or more.

$300 to $350 or so to invest? A second-hand Aimpoint PRO with factory mount is a sure bet.

$450 to $500? Shopping around for a deal on the Trijicon MRO, new, with a good (if fixed) base is a solid.

$600+ ? Bump up to the Aimpoint H2. Go for broke with the T2, if you need night-vision capability.

And as a general rule, I would not spend less than $150 on a stand-alone laser. Lasers integrated with lights? I wouldn't spend any less than however much it costs to get a Surefire X400Ultra (typically $500). Laser integrated with an optic - particularly one with an electronic reticle? I would just say no, outright: shared circuitry and battery-dependence alone would mean that you won't be able to use one as a backup for the other (using a laser such as the DBAL or MWAL, BTW, is what the good guys and gals at the tips of our spears both for domestic-LE and for the military are doing not just for night-vision, but also as backup sights) - and there's absolutely no cheap optic that will make good on this double promise.

I don't know that anyone knows me that well here (maybe with the exception of @xdman , who's seen my past posts on XDTalk), but those who do, know that I am not the gear-snob type. :) What I am recommending to you, @SMSgtRod , is truly from my heart, in not wanting to see someone waste their money or otherwise go wrong. :)
 
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Additionally the Green Laser shut off when a shot was fired. Must have been scared I guess :ROFLMAO:

The fixed sights that I ordered were delivered. Amazon even provided a picture of where they were left. Hmmm.... not anyplace around our house. Not front, not back nor way out by the front gate. Took a quick look at near by folks homes and nada..... reported to Amazon..... They want to give it a day..... ok......
Went out and now searched neighbors and found them. Knocked on door to explain, nobody answered, so did the package pirate thing and brought my stuff home. Then I went shooting and the sight issue jumped up. Not a good day here so far.
 
TSiWRX said:
@SMSgtRod -

Can you give us an idea of your actual budget?

In your OP, the price variable between the items was drastic. And you ended up picking an item that was about $30 more than the high end of your OP. :)

If you can give an actual budget - and let us know if this budget includes the mount - I think we'll all be better able to help you, as there truly are excellent offerings at almost every price-point, although I will say, honestly, that I strongly recommend you look to spend at least $150, with this purchase.

Towards the latter, the Holoson-OE units for PA and others are great budget optics, and their higher-end stuff are actually receiving raves from high-profile industry figures who've had the chance to T&E such units for the past year or more.

$300 to $350 or so to invest? A second-hand Aimpoint PRO with factory mount is a sure bet.

$450 to $500? Shopping around for a deal on the Trijicon MRO, new, with a good (if fixed) base is a solid.

$600+ ? Bump up to the Aimpoint H2. Go for broke with the T2, if you need night-vision capability.

And as a general rule, I would not spend less than $150 on a stand-alone laser. Lasers integrated with lights? I wouldn't spend any less than however much it costs to get a Surefire X400Ultra (typically $500). Laser integrated with an optic - particularly one with an electronic reticle? I would just say no, outright: shared circuitry and battery-dependence alone would mean that you won't be able to use one as a backup for the other (using a laser such as the DBAL or MWAL, BTW, is what the good guys and gals at the tips of our spears both for domestic-LE and for the military are doing not just for night-vision, but also as backup sights) - and there's absolutely no cheap optic that will make good on this double promise.

I don't know that anyone knows me that well here (maybe with the exception of @xdman , who's seen my past posts on XDTalk), but those who do, know that I am not the gear-snob type. :) What I am recommending to you, @SMSgtRod , is truly from my heart, in not wanting to see someone waste their money or otherwise go wrong. :)
Click to expand...

I really hadn't set a budget for the sight.... now I can't see a $600 sight on a $500 gun. I'd like something that can be accurate from say 6 to 25 yards. Put the bullet right in the dot. Adjoining laser is nice for room clearing 2 to 6 yards, good enough to get the center of center mass quickly.
I figure should be able to come across with something for $200 that works. The AT3 was $150. I thought that was a dream, turned out to be a night mare.....😞
 
SMSgtRod said:
I really hadn't set a budget for the sight.... now I can't see a $600 sight on a $500 gun.
I'd like something that can be accurate from say 6 to 25 yards. Put the bullet right in the dot. Adjoining laser is nice for room clearing 2 to 6 yards, good enough to get the center of center mass quickly.
I figure should be able to come across with something for $200 that works. The AT3 was $150. I thought that was a dream, turned out to be a night mare.....😞
Click to expand...

OK, we can work with that. :) I just needed a realistic assessment, that's all.

Bargain-basement, the Bushnell TRS-25 is about as low as I'd be willing to go. It's got a proven track record - so what if its not sexy? :)

I would not purchase it for any more than $60, stand-alone (with no mount), or $80 with one that is properly cowitnessed with the AR platform (either absolute or lower-1/3, your preference). If you're pushing into the $100 range with this sight, you'd be better off spending the extra bucks to go after the Holosun-OE ones, the next tier up.

At the $125 to $150 range (depending on whether the unit ships with a mount or if you must buy one to supplement), the Holosun-OE sights such as the Sig Sauer Romeo5, Primary Arms SLx model MD-ADS, and the Holosun 403-series will give you better optics than the Bushy, and are also time/use-proven units. Same goes for the Vortex Crossfire, which shares that same similarity of build and footprint.

At the upper end of your budget, the Vortex Sparc AR II and StrikeFire are easily within your reach, and again, both are proven. These, like the Crossfire, also include mounts, so you don't have to worry about incurring additional cost, there.

Any of these quality sighting options will have you on-the-mark from powder-burn distances all the way out to the 300+ yard line (again, please re-visit my post here - https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/red-dot-sight-assistance.521/page-2#post-9159 - regarding CQB-distance mechanical offset requirements...zero at the 25 yard line at the minimum, at the 50 or 100 is even better, and work to make compensating for mechanical offset at CQB distances an ingrained part of your marksmanship capabilities). A friend of mine introduced both myself and my buddy to the MD-ADS, which as you know I have placed on my daughter's 15-22 (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/photos-of-projects-your-working-on.408/#post-6388), while my buddy runs it on his AK (and has run it in training classes).


-----


With regard to your BUIS -

SMSgtRod said:
Once mounted they are fold down
Click to expand...

What make/model did you purchase?

For folks who wish to run folding BUIS, the base investment I recommend are the Magpul MBUS. -DO NOT- buy them off Amazon, eBay, or at the gun-show, or off some other weird fly-by-night discount source. Only buy them from trusted vendors.

The reason for this is because there are both specific-for-airsoft variants of the Magpul MBUS, as well as a plethora of clones and knock-offs, and -NONE- of these will either save you all that much money up-front, and -ALL- of them will be much more prone to failure and breakage versus the genuine article.

At this point, if you can wait until the inevitable Presidents' Day sales, keep an eye on Primary Arms (where, coincidentally, you should also be able to find a good deal on many of the RDSs I noted above :)) and/or PSA (Palmetto State Armory), you should be able to purchase a set of both the front and the rear MBUS for right around $65 or so (instead of paying $45 or so for each one). Of the two vendors, for a few bucks more, I'd go Primary Arms, due to the typically slow(er, if not outright slow) shipping that's common to PSA, particularly during seasonal sales. (Actually, Granite Ridge Outfitters has the sets on sale for $70, now, and that's not an outrageous price at all, if you must have it *now*.)

Same as with the RDS, zero at the 25 at the minimum - if not the 50/100 - and then learn your CQB offsets.

There is a reason why no SMEs teach or recommend the "7-yard zero" or other close-range zeros for CQB. ;)
 
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TSiWRX said:
OK, we can work with that. :) I just needed a realistic assessment, that's all.

Bargain-basement, the Bushnell TRS-25 is about as low as I'd be willing to go. It's got a proven track record - so what if its not sexy? :)

I would not purchase it for any more than $60, stand-alone (with no mount), or $80 with one that is properly cowitnessed with the AR platform (either absolute or lower-1/3, your preference). If you're pushing into the $100 range with this sight, you'd be better off spending the extra bucks to go after the Holosun-OE ones, the next tier up.

At the $125 to $150 range (depending on whether the unit ships with a mount or if you must buy one to supplement), the Holosun-OE sights such as the Sig Sauer Romeo5, Primary Arms SLx model MD-ADS, and the Holosun 403-series will give you better optics than the Bushy, and are also time/use-proven units. Same goes for the Vortex Crossfire, which shares that same similarity of build and footprint.

At the upper end of your budget, the Vortex Sparc AR II and StrikeFire are easily within your reach, and again, both are proven. These, like the Crossfire, also include mounts, so you don't have to worry about incurring additional cost, there.

Any of these quality sighting options will have you on-the-mark from powder-burn distances all the way out to the 300+ yard line (again, please re-visit my post here - https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/red-dot-sight-assistance.521/page-2#post-9159 - regarding CQB-distance mechanical offset requirements...zero at the 25 yard line at the minimum, at the 50 or 100 is even better, and work to make compensating for mechanical offset at CQB distances an ingrained part of your marksmanship capabilities). A friend of mine introduced both myself and my buddy to the MD-ADS, which as you know I have placed on my daughter's 15-22 (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/photos-of-projects-your-working-on.408/#post-6388), while my buddy runs it on his AK (and has run it in training classes).


-----


With regard to your BUIS -



What make/model did you purchase?

For folks who wish to run folding BUIS, the base investment I recommend are the Magpul MBUS. -DO NOT- buy them off Amazon, eBay, or at the gun-show, or off some other weird fly-by-night discount source. Only buy them from trusted vendors.

The reason for this is because there are both specific-for-airsoft variants of the Magpul MBUS, as well as a plethora of clones and knock-offs, and -NONE- of these will either save you all that much money up-front, and -ALL- of them will be much more prone to failure and breakage versus the genuine article.

At this point, if you can wait until the inevitable Presidents' Day sales, keep an eye on Primary Arms (where, coincidentally, you should also be able to find a good deal on many of the RDSs I noted above :)) and/or PSA (Palmetto State Armory), you should be able to purchase a set of both the front and the rear MBUS for right around $65 or so (instead of paying $45 or so for each one). Of the two vendors, for a few bucks more, I'd go Primary Arms, due to the typically slow(er, if not outright slow) shipping that's common to PSA, particularly during seasonal sales. (Actually, Granite Ridge Outfitters has the sets on sale for $70, now, and that's not an outrageous price at all, if you must have it *now*.)

Same as with the RDS, zero at the 25 at the minimum - if not the 50/100 - and then learn your CQB offsets.

There is a reason why no SMEs teach or recommend the "7-yard zero" or other close-range zeros for CQB. ;)
Click to expand...
I swear to god if I ever have a question I am asking you. Knowledge, knowledge, and more knowledge.
 
TSiWRX said:
OK, we can work with that. :) I just needed a realistic assessment, that's all.

Bargain-basement, the Bushnell TRS-25 is about as low as I'd be willing to go. It's got a proven track record - so what if its not sexy? :)

I would not purchase it for any more than $60, stand-alone (with no mount), or $80 with one that is properly cowitnessed with the AR platform (either absolute or lower-1/3, your preference). If you're pushing into the $100 range with this sight, you'd be better off spending the extra bucks to go after the Holosun-OE ones, the next tier up.

At the $125 to $150 range (depending on whether the unit ships with a mount or if you must buy one to supplement), the Holosun-OE sights such as the Sig Sauer Romeo5, Primary Arms SLx model MD-ADS, and the Holosun 403-series will give you better optics than the Bushy, and are also time/use-proven units. Same goes for the Vortex Crossfire, which shares that same similarity of build and footprint.

At the upper end of your budget, the Vortex Sparc AR II and StrikeFire are easily within your reach, and again, both are proven. These, like the Crossfire, also include mounts, so you don't have to worry about incurring additional cost, there.

Any of these quality sighting options will have you on-the-mark from powder-burn distances all the way out to the 300+ yard line (again, please re-visit my post here - https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/red-dot-sight-assistance.521/page-2#post-9159 - regarding CQB-distance mechanical offset requirements...zero at the 25 yard line at the minimum, at the 50 or 100 is even better, and work to make compensating for mechanical offset at CQB distances an ingrained part of your marksmanship capabilities). A friend of mine introduced both myself and my buddy to the MD-ADS, which as you know I have placed on my daughter's 15-22 (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/photos-of-projects-your-working-on.408/#post-6388), while my buddy runs it on his AK (and has run it in training classes).


-----


With regard to your BUIS -



What make/model did you purchase?

For folks who wish to run folding BUIS, the base investment I recommend are the Magpul MBUS. -DO NOT- buy them off Amazon, eBay, or at the gun-show, or off some other weird fly-by-night discount source. Only buy them from trusted vendors.

The reason for this is because there are both specific-for-airsoft variants of the Magpul MBUS, as well as a plethora of clones and knock-offs, and -NONE- of these will either save you all that much money up-front, and -ALL- of them will be much more prone to failure and breakage versus the genuine article.

At this point, if you can wait until the inevitable Presidents' Day sales, keep an eye on Primary Arms (where, coincidentally, you should also be able to find a good deal on many of the RDSs I noted above :)) and/or PSA (Palmetto State Armory), you should be able to purchase a set of both the front and the rear MBUS for right around $65 or so (instead of paying $45 or so for each one). Of the two vendors, for a few bucks more, I'd go Primary Arms, due to the typically slow(er, if not outright slow) shipping that's common to PSA, particularly during seasonal sales. (Actually, Granite Ridge Outfitters has the sets on sale for $70, now, and that's not an outrageous price at all, if you must have it *now*.)

Same as with the RDS, zero at the 25 at the minimum - if not the 50/100 - and then learn your CQB offsets.

There is a reason why no SMEs teach or recommend the "7-yard zero" or other close-range zeros for CQB. ;)
Click to expand...

I find that the Green is better for my eyes than the Red..... shake awake is nice too. Am still checking out the plethora of data you have provided.
Shouldn't a laser zero at 7 yard or less? I CBQ it's more point and shoot which a laser could provide. With a 300BO pistol shooting at someone 50 yards away is most likely no longer a threat. 7" barrel is only going to be just so accurate.
TEXASforLIFE said:
Are you wanting a tube type optic instead of a reflex dot?
Click to expand...

One thing I did find is that the tube may be a little harder to view through with the eyes and ears on. I still have the Pinty to play with. Going to mount the BUIS here in a little bit and test it with the Pinty. The Pinty is just a cheap unit that I mounted for fun on the Ruger Charger.

Certainly appreciate all the input. Thank you very much..... more questions will follow I'm sure.
 
SMSgtRod said:
I find that the Green is better for my eyes than the Red..... shake awake is nice too. Am still checking out the plethora of data you have provided.
Shouldn't a laser zero at 7 yard or less? I CBQ it's more point and shoot which a laser could provide. With a 300BO pistol shooting at someone 50 yards away is most likely no longer a threat. 7" barrel is only going to be just so accurate.


One thing I did find is that the tube may be a little harder to view through with the eyes and ears on. I still have the Pinty to play with. Going to mount the BUIS here in a little bit and test it with the Pinty. The Pinty is just a cheap unit that I mounted for fun on the Ruger Charger.

Certainly appreciate all the input. Thank you very much..... more questions will follow I'm sure.
Click to expand...
Give your rail length as from charge handle too end of rail and I can help you setup the distance. Also give me your range you want too shoot!
 
Grifter said:
I swear to god if I ever have a question I am asking you. Knowledge, knowledge, and more knowledge.
Click to expand...

:giggle: You're making me blush - stop! :) Honestly, I know very little, but there's a few spots of shine in here, so I try to contribute where I can.

I've struggled with the unmagnified RDS before, due to my astigmatism, and worked to both gather knowledge from SMEs as well as from behind the optic to reconcile things. As long as we're not talking about using them with night-vision, I can help.

Budget lasers is something that I've personally spent embarrassingly too much money on. Given the opportunity to go back in time, I'd have just saved up a little longer to begin with, and I'd like to save others the same heartache/headache.

Coming to grips with mechanical offset is something that I also needed to work at, since I've never had any military or police marksmanship training - I had to work to understand external ballistics (i.e. that the bullet doesn't "rise," but rather, the interactions between the sight and bore axes causes the perceived phenomenon), and then, as you and others who've read this thread and the "AR" thread know, I've had to again work to really be able to execute this knowledge while under pressure. Similarly, CQB was a new concept to me as well, and being able to


SMSgtRod said:
I find that the Green is better for my eyes than the Red..... shake awake is nice too. Am still checking out the plethora of data you have provided.
Click to expand...

A green laser is going to cost you, but Holosun provides a green-reticle RDS with "shake-awake" at a price-point that's below $200, with their HE403B-GR: https://www.primaryarms.com/holosun-403-elite-micro-green-dot-he403b-gr

Green reticles are definitely less common, so don't just look for a sight that has a green reticle - keep in mind the make ("brand") too, so that you can err on the side of better quality. :)

"Shake-awake" is one of the newest sought-after features, but in all honesty, with battery-life that's typically now measured in years (note the manufacturer's quoted setting at which this battery duration is claimed, though!), a yearly or semi-annual replacement schedule will have you good-to-go, even without. Most folks recommend either easy-to-remember dates (i.e. your birthday, major holiday, etc.) or to time it with the semi-annual replacement of your home's smoke/CO-detector battery replacements.

Shouldn't a laser zero at 7 yard or less? I CBQ it's more point and shoot which a laser could provide. With a 300BO pistol shooting at someone 50 yards away is most likely no longer a threat. 7" barrel is only going to be just so accurate.
Click to expand...

Yes and no.

There's multiple ways to zero a laser, and each has their compromises:

www.shootingillustrated.com

An Official Journal Of The NRA | 3 Methods for Zeroing Your Handgun Laser

How should your handgun laser be set up on your defensive firearm? Take a look at three different methods outlined here to see what works best for you.
www.shootingillustrated.com www.shootingillustrated.com

blog.beretta.com

How to Zero Your Pistol Laser Sight

If you decide to install a laser sight on your pistol, how do you go about zeroing it? Like a scope on a rifle, you have to decide at what distance you want it to be perfectly aligned. Here are some ideas to consider.
blog.beretta.com blog.beretta.com

My personal preference is the "parallel" method for both handgun and long-gun.

For the handgun, a 50-yard shot (in-reference to the Shooting Illustrated article) in reduced visibility (i.e. low-light) as well as my ability to hold-steady for visual alignment with the laser (negated with use of ironsights or optics, as my eyes/brain compensates for the "infinity wobble," to-wit: 50-yard shots on B/C-zone steel is something htat I am very confident and comfortable with, even single-handed, under time/social pressure) are factors which I consider to be zero-sum.

This, versus on a carbine - even short-barreled .223/5.56 or 300-BLK - is a very, very easy shot to make.

Additionally, the parallel method reinforces the mechanical offset concept.

^ But that's just me. :)

One thing I did find is that the tube may be a little harder to view through with the eyes and ears on.
Click to expand...

You may have a mount height issue or, possibly, an eye dominance issue.

Let's pursue the following three questions -

(1) What kind of mount are you using on your optic?

(2) Do you have a cheek-riser on your AR's stock?

(3) Are you shooting off of your dominant eye, with that same cheek on the stock? If so, close your non-dominant eye just to be sure that the sight picture does not change (you may have incomplete dominance).
 
Last edited:
TSiWRX said:
:giggle: You're making me blush - stop! :) Honestly, I know very little, but there's a few spots of shine in here, so I try to contribute where I can.

I've struggled with the unmagnified RDS before, due to my astigmatism, and worked to both gather knowledge from SMEs as well as from behind the optic to reconcile things. As long as we're not talking about using them with night-vision, I can help.

Budget lasers is something that I've personally spent embarrassingly too much money on. Given the opportunity to go back in time, I'd have just saved up a little longer to begin with, and I'd like to save others the same heartache/headache.

Coming to grips with mechanical offset is something that I also needed to work at, since I've never had any military or police marksmanship training - I had to work to understand external ballistics (i.e. that the bullet doesn't "rise," but rather, the interactions between the sight and bore axes causes the perceived phenomenon), and then, as you and others who've read this thread and the "AR" thread know, I've had to again work to really be able to execute this knowledge while under pressure. Similarly, CQB was a new concept to me as well, and being able to




A green laser is going to cost you, but Holosun provides a green-reticle RDS with "shake-awake" at a price-point that's below $200, with their HE403B-GR: https://www.primaryarms.com/holosun-403-elite-micro-green-dot-he403b-gr

Green reticles are definitely less common, so don't just look for a sight that has a green reticle - keep in mind the make ("brand") too, so that you can err on the side of better quality. :)

"Shake-awake" is one of the newest sought-after features, but in all honesty, with battery-life that's typically now measured in years (note the manufacturer's quoted setting at which this battery duration is claimed, though!), a yearly or semi-annual replacement schedule will have you good-to-go, even without. Most folks recommend either easy-to-remember dates (i.e. your birthday, major holiday, etc.) or to time it with the semi-annual replacement of your home's smoke/CO-detector battery replacements.



Yes and no.

There's multiple ways to zero a laser, and each has their compromises:

www.shootingillustrated.com

An Official Journal Of The NRA | 3 Methods for Zeroing Your Handgun Laser

How should your handgun laser be set up on your defensive firearm? Take a look at three different methods outlined here to see what works best for you.
www.shootingillustrated.com www.shootingillustrated.com

blog.beretta.com

How to Zero Your Pistol Laser Sight

If you decide to install a laser sight on your pistol, how do you go about zeroing it? Like a scope on a rifle, you have to decide at what distance you want it to be perfectly aligned. Here are some ideas to consider.
blog.beretta.com blog.beretta.com

My personal preference is the "parallel" method for both handgun and long-gun.

For the handgun, a 50-yard shot (in-reference to the Shooting Illustrated article) in reduced visibility (i.e. low-light) as well as my ability to hold-steady for visual alignment with the laser (negated with use of ironsights or optics, as my eyes/brain compensates for the "infinity wobble," to-wit: 50-yard shots on B/C-zone steel is something htat I am very confident and comfortable with, even single-handed, under time/social pressure) are factors which I consider to be zero-sum.

This, versus on a carbine - even short-barreled .223/5.56 or 300-BLK - is a very, very easy shot to make.

Additionally, the parallel method reinforces the mechanical offset concept.

^ But that's just me. :)



You may have a mount height issue or, possibly, an eye dominance issue.

Let's pursue the following three questions -

(1) What kind of mount are you using on your optic?

(2) Do you have a cheek-riser on your AR's stock?

(3) Are you shooting off of your dominant eye, with that same cheek on the stock? If so, close your non-dominant eye just to be sure that the sight picture does not change (you may have incomplete dominance).
Click to expand...
Are you believing everything you read, printed or internet, because you know what is said about the internet, "If it's on the internet it must be true!" How many times have you changed a setup from what you read or watched too suit your needs? "Don't fall into the trap the Democrats are full of crap!", My Fellow American's quote! Just for laughs! Republicans could do the same also, they both open their mouths!?
 
TEXASforLIFE said:
Are you believing everything you read, printed or internet, because you know what is said about the internet, "If it's on the internet it must be true!" How many times have you changed a setup from what you read or watched too suit your needs? "Don't fall into the trap the Democrats are full of crap!", My Fellow American's quote! Just for laughs! Republicans could do the same also, they both open their mouths!?
Click to expand...
That's were we get in to a lot of trouble. Voting for a Republican is not the answer. Have to vote for a Conservative. We have way too many RINO's in office now. Even the Democrats will vote for a RINO. That makes it quite difficult to get rid of them once elected. Term Limits.
 
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