reloading questions/advice if you would please?

[jumpinjoe]

No brother, the 'duh' was that I've survived the nearly 40 yrs of playing with this stuff. If you read it any other way I'm truly sorry and apologize sincerely. Please note the (duh) was enclosed by punctuation ending the sentence about myself.

I've tried hard to be respectful and even courteous when responding to your questions and/or concerns in all my posts and even when I might have been offering a minor criticism. But I'll refrain from responding any more while I'm unsure whether or not you understand my (duh) was not in any way a slight on you.

I jumped down here and wrote this as soon as I read the first line in your post #200 asking if that was in reference to you. I have never, and will never intentionally insult anyone here or anywhere else. We can all make mistakes in using the written word since it doesn't convey the nuance or tone of voice that the spoken word does. Some here can verify that ..........................

So, know that I've offered you the very best advice and help I could and I congratulate you on your tenacity. And again if I offended you in any way, my sincerest apologies.

 

[Old_Me]

No brother, the 'duh' was that I've survived the nearly 40 yrs of playing with this stuff. If you read it any other way I'm truly sorry and apologize sincerely. Please note the (duh) was enclosed by punctuation ending the sentence about myself.

I've tried hard to be respectful and even courteous when responding to your questions and/or concerns in all my posts and even when I might have been offering a minor criticism. But I'll refrain from responding any more while I'm unsure whether or not you understand my (duh) was not in any way a slight on you.

I jumped down here and wrote this as soon as I read the first line in your post #200 asking if that was in reference to you. I have never, and will never intentionally insult anyone here or anywhere else. We can all make mistakes in using the written word since it doesn't convey the nuance or tone of voice that the spoken word does. Some here can verify that ..........................

So, know that I've offered you the very best advice and help I could and I congratulate you on your tenacity. And again if I offended you in any way, my sincerest apologies.

it's just the way i had seen it, given that i am reading reloading articles, watching some excellent videos, and trying on my own, even so far as going to see the man that reloads with all Dillon equipment. frustration sets in, as it would with i'd imagine any newbie. (i also took him a half dozen Italian pastries this morning, so as to not want "something for nothing"....but i also give their dog, "gourmet" doggie biscuits cuz, well......it's how i roll

we are good, my bad for thinking wrong. but to also hope that you understand, i frequent other websites, under "assumed aliases" and have seen first hand how some treat newbie reloaders that ask questions.

the "offer to help" at some sites seems to have a cut off point, like about 3 questions, then it's "assumed" the newbie knows everything.

i know this as i have tried "in the past" to ask multiple questions, only to be "brushed off" in short time.

it's like at some site, "well, we are here to help you, but there is a limit to that amount of help"

and the "search feature" does not always find a match for the questions asked

see what i mean..??

 

[jumpinjoe]

Sorry but had to leave for awhile before I got around to reply to this. Know that we're all good as far as I'm concerned. I knew what it meant and understood you had simply mis-read or misunderstood it.

I've never expected to impose a "cut-off" point to anyone about anything. As long as I feel I'm helping or can be a help, I'll continue trying. If at some point I don't feel like I have anything more to offer someone, I'll explain that to them and hope they find someone else that can help. But, I don't ever want to be an imposition on anyone either. Hopefully if the other person feels like I'm no longer a help, they will tell me.

I don't ever look down on "newbies". I was one once and remember how hard it was to get much help back then. Remember there were no/very few personal computers with email, forums, search sites, help sites, etc, etc available back then. Customer service on the phone was about as good as it got and often they were as stressed out and frustrated as the 'newbie' who trying to learn. Not all were bad, some were very good .... just like today.

Now, to my hopefully most important piece of advice tonight on the topic of re-loading. Be very careful to not let "FRUSTRATION" set in. Re-loading is a very enjoyable and satisfying hobby, but is not one to take lightly and/or haphazardly. 'Frustration' can lead to either or both. When you begin to feel frustrated, just stop, take a break, cool off or whatever is called for, then go back to it with a renewed interest. The hobby is not particularly dangerous under most circumstances, but it can be under the wrong ones.

 

[Old_Me]

Now, to my hopefully most important piece of advice tonight on the topic of re-loading. Be very careful to not let "FRUSTRATION" set in. Re-loading is a very enjoyable and satisfying hobby, but is not one to take lightly and/or haphazardly. 'Frustration' can lead to either or both. When you begin to feel frustrated, just stop, take a break, cool off or whatever is called for, then go back to it with a renewed interest. The hobby is not particularly dangerous under most circumstances, but it can be under the wrong ones.

yeah i learnt a long, long time ago, when the frustration level is just a glimmer in my eyes, walk away. this is why i "might" spend as little as 1 hour daily on the press, getting it dialed in. one die at a time in fact.

i have time to actually start reloading, since i am like everyone else, needing primers, especially LPP.

then as anyone else that is retired might know, there are too many other "to do things" on the daily list of "Honey Do".

dang, i wasn't this busy when i was working..!!!!!!!

as it stands now, i mentioned that i sent an email to Missouri Bullet, with the stock number of the bullets i got in that sale.

they show recommended seating depths on a couple of thier other bullets (ii5 grains), just not this one (124 grains), so i asked for thier recommended seating depth. the seating depth "might be" the same, but i ain't gonna assume that.

 

[Philmo11]

Wow, I am late to the party but better late than never right? I’ve read a couple pages in the beginning and a couple here at the end so forgive if something has already been said somewhere.

First, lead bullets can have a little variation in diameter. shouldn’t be much, .001-.002. It’s just the nature of lead. It’s not uncommon for a lead bullet to be .002 larger than a jacketed. They swage down when entering the bore. A tight bore fit is needed with a lead bullet because if it’s not tight, hot gas will seep into wherever it’s not tight and melt the sides of the bullet, leaving excess leading in your barrel.

Berry’s copper plated or a jacketed bullet, those are struck a second time after plated to ensure exact diameter. The plating isn’t subject to melting like lead.

Second, variation in OAL can be many things and sometimes all of these things. If you run one round through the press, you will have a different result than you will running a full plate of brass through each station. This is due to plate flex. You cannot tighten a plate down tight enough for this to disappear. Likewise, the less the plate it tight, the more variation there will be. Consistency all the way around the plate is needed to be accurate.

Some bullets, especially cast, can have a tacky feeling. This is the wax or lube on the bullet. In the seater die, it’s coned inside. That tacky residue can alter seating depth from one bullet to the next. The bullets need to go as straight into the die as possible. The seater die (at least Lee Dies) also has a crimp with the seater. The larger diameter of the lead can also cause an issue of it comes in contact with that crimp, especially with it being tacky.

Take a factory round, put it in position under the seater/crimp combo die, back the die way out, screw the seater all the way in, then back it out two turns. Raise the bullet into the die and screw the die itself all the way down until the seater hits the bullet, then tighten the nut on the die. The will get you close, get the crimp out of the way and still give you a couple turns of adjustment on the seater without having to worry about hitting the crimp. Then crimp with the factory crimp die. I’ve had some 41 mag bullets that I can feel hit the crimp inside there. This fixes the problem.

Third, as a rule of thumb, I seat all semi-auto pistol cartridges to -0.020 to -0.015 from max OAL. I’ve probably loaded 50k pistol rounds in the last two to two and a half years. That works in everything I’ve ever run them in. Just don’t go deeper than -0.020 of OAL.

Third, I know they are cheap but lead is not ideal in semi-auto for many of the same reasons you get inconsistent seating depth in your dies. If you can avoid it, do. Copper plated and jacketed have near frictionless surfaces and the diameter is very consistent.

I saw mention of case trimmers and case stretching in the beginning of the thread. Bottle neck cartridges like most rifle cartridges stretch because that bottleneck on the inside of the case creates a surface for the expanding gas to press against, causing the brass to stretch lengthwise. In all the pistol calibers I’ve loaded (which is just about every main stream semi-auto or revolver from .32 to the 500 mag) I’ve never once trimmed a straight wall pistol cartridge (and I have the trimmers to do it.) Straight wall cartridges expand out to the sides under pressure. Bottle necks expand both directions.

 

[Old_Me]

Wow, I am late to the party but better late than never right? I’ve read a couple pages in the beginning and a couple here at the end so forgive if something has already been said somewhere.

First, lead bullets can have a little variation in diameter. shouldn’t be much, .001-.002. It’s just the nature of lead. It’s not uncommon for a lead bullet to be .002 larger than a jacketed. They swage down when entering the bore. A tight bore fit is needed with a lead bullet because if it’s not tight, hot gas will seep into wherever it’s not tight and melt the sides of the bullet, leaving excess leading in your barrel.

Berry’s copper plated or a jacketed bullet, those are struck a second time after plated to ensure exact diameter. The plating isn’t subject to melting like lead.

Second, variation in OAL can be many things and sometimes all of these things. If you run one round through the press, you will have a different result than you will running a full plate of brass through each station. This is due to plate flex. You cannot tighten a plate down tight enough for this to disappear. Likewise, the less the plate it tight, the more variation there will be. Consistency all the way around the plate is needed to be accurate.

Some bullets, especially cast, can have a tacky feeling. This is the wax or lube on the bullet. In the seater die, it’s coned inside. That tacky residue can alter seating depth from one bullet to the next. The bullets need to go as straight into the die as possible. The seater die (at least Lee Dies) also has a crimp with the seater. The larger diameter of the lead can also cause an issue of it comes in contact with that crimp, especially with it being tacky.

Take a factory round, put it in position under the seater/crimp combo die, back the die way out, screw the seater all the way in, then back it out two turns. Raise the bullet into the die and screw the die itself all the way down until the seater hits the bullet, then tighten the nut on the die. The will get you close, get the crimp out of the way and still give you a couple turns of adjustment on the seater without having to worry about hitting the crimp. Then crimp with the factory crimp die. I’ve had some 41 mag bullets that I can feel hit the crimp inside there. This fixes the problem.

Third, as a rule of thumb, I seat all semi-auto pistol cartridges to -0.020 to -0.015 from max OAL. I’ve probably loaded 50k pistol rounds in the last two to two and a half years. That works in everything I’ve ever run them in. Just don’t go deeper than -0.020 of OAL.

Third, I know they are cheap but lead is not ideal in semi-auto for many of the same reasons you get inconsistent seating depth in your dies. If you can avoid it, do. Copper plated and jacketed have near frictionless surfaces and the diameter is very consistent.

I saw mention of case trimmers and case stretching in the beginning of the thread. Bottle neck cartridges like most rifle cartridges stretch because that bottleneck on the inside of the case creates a surface for the expanding gas to press against, causing the brass to stretch lengthwise. In all the pistol calibers I’ve loaded (which is just about every main stream semi-auto or revolver from .32 to the 500 mag) I’ve never once trimmed a straight wall pistol cartridge (and I have the trimmers to do it.) Straight wall cartridges expand out to the sides under pressure. Bottle necks expand both directions.

well regarding seating/crimping

i have a seater die, i guess it crimps as well, but i can still "feel" a ridge"......then i have a seperate crimping die in the final stage of the press, where the cartridge comes out smooth as a baby's butt, with no "ridge" just like a factory round.

now as for bullets, the place where i get my reloaded ammo from, casts lead bullets. he told me the other day that he can sell me cast bullets for cheaper than i can get them online......so i am contemplating doing just that, buying them from him. (i'd be saving on shipping costs, but of course would still have to pay sales taxes.

once i get "some experience with reloading, documenting the recipe, and test firing the ammo, i might, switch over to poly coated or FMJ bullets.

yes, leading in the barrels can be a problem, but also i have like 42,000 different de-leading/cleaners here

i have tons of factory ammo, i was told that if you shoot lead, then shoot factory, that'll somewhat "clear out" some of the leading.?

i will not be getting into rifle ammo, i have no rifles, so case trimming is not a concern. i have watched a few very excellent you tube videos from say Brownells where case trimming on a hand gun brass, just is not done.

if i were to get a rifle, i'd want a Henry, then i can assure everyone, that beast will be fed the prime rib of ammo.

but that is way into the future.

for now, in the present?

i just want to finalize dialing in my Dillon, (i still have my Lee i haven't touched yet), and start reloading 9mm ammo for plinking.

 

[Philmo11]

i have a seater die, i guess it crimps as well, but i can still "feel" a ridge"......then i have a seperate crimping die in the final stage of the press, where the cartridge comes out smooth as a baby's butt, with no "ridge" just like a factory round.

What do you mean by "ridge"? are you talking about the rim of the case mouth? You should feel some of that. Semi-Autos seat on the case mouth.

now as for bullets, the place where i get my reloaded ammo from, casts lead bullets. he told me the other day that he can sell me cast bullets for cheaper than i can get them online......so i am contemplating doing just that, buying them from him. (i'd be saving on shipping costs, but of course would still have to pay sales taxes.

That is entirely up to you. If you continue to have issues, refer to what I said above. I use Berry's in all semi-autos. Revolver rounds are a completely different animal.

i have tons of factory ammo, i was told that if you shoot lead, then shoot factory, that'll somewhat "clear out" some of the leading.?

It actually just smashes the lead in to the walls of the barrel. Shooting FMJ after lead doesn't actually clean anything out.

 

[Old_Me]

i spoke with the old man (the father of the reloader at the store) about buying maybe at least 100, 230 grain RN lead bullets. i did not want to but any more than that for now. i have SPP and i have about 100 .45 ACP's cases that are Federal and they have small primers.

i want to get the Lee dialed in maybe by saturday.

been busy with some stuff at the house past few days, so i ain't touched the Dillon for final adjustments.

 

[Old_Me]

i picked up those 230 gr RN cast bullets this morning. the old man at the store had to put a bevel on them and lube them a bit. no price on them, the salesman told me not to sweat that.

i been going there for a while now, buying guns, and ammo, and supplying them with apple turnovers and doggie treats....ain't like i'm a stranger...lol

 

[Old_Me]

i needed to set up the Lee. i hadn't really done anything to it since, well, i mounted it onto the bench..

i had dialed in nearly all the dies, except the powder drop. the plunk test went very well, i tried the dummy rounds in my RIA 1911, each one loaded great, and ejected great as well.

next saturday (or when time permits, i got contractors coming over), i will then dial in the powder charge, and then possibly load up maybe 8 rnds of .45ACP....

i have to make hopefully the final adjustments on the Dillon possibly sometime this week as well, when time permits, and hopefully load up maybe 10 to 15 rds...of 9mm, on that press.

both calibers just enough to "test" them at the range, and go from that point forward.

i do not want to load up more than i stated. just enough to load up 1 magazine for each gun.

 

[youngolddude]

Dies are designed to return brass to factory specs, seat primers, dump a prescribed amount of powder, flare the case mouth, seat bullets and apply a crimp that locks the bullet in place. A finished round after processing should easily drop into a chamber. Most guns function properly when ammunition is within specs, although any may have preferences for what they reliably feed and/or accurately shoot.
I have used Dillon locking rings on Lee dies.
Don't worry about slight variations of OAL, a few thousandths shouldn't matter. Do they chamber? Can you twist the bullet? Do they chamber off of the case mouth?

 

[Old_Me]

Dies are designed to return brass to factory specs, seat primers, dump a prescribed amount of powder, flare the case mouth, seat bullets and apply a crimp that locks the bullet in place. A finished round after processing should easily drop into a chamber. Most guns function properly when ammunition is within specs, although any may have preferences for what they reliably feed and/or accurately shoot.
I have used Dillon locking rings on Lee dies.
Don't worry about slight variations of OAL, a few thousandths shouldn't matter. Do they chamber? Can you twist the bullet? Do they chamber off of the case mouth?

1) Do they chamber?
yes


2) Can you twist the bullet?
yes


3) Do they chamber off of the case mouth?
not sure what this means, since they are crimped

 

[TEXASforLIFE]

1) Do they chamber?
yes


2) Can you twist the bullet?
yes


3) Do they chamber off of the case mouth?
not sure what this means, since they are crimped

Not sure about the chamber part, but does headspace off of case mouth.

 

[Old_Me]

Not sure about the chamber part, but does headspace off of case mouth.

i am not sure what is being asked about the headspace and case mouth?

when the brass is decapped and sized? it then goes to the flare/bell/powder die?

 

[youngolddude]

Revolver brass have a head that stops the loaded round from going deeper into the chamber. Semi-auto rounds headspace off of the case mouth. There is a ridge in the chamber that this case mouth needs to stop on.
If you can twist the bullet after crimping, you need to crank down more crimp. If you go way over the top on the crimp, the chamber will not be able to stop the case at the mouth because you crimped the mouth smaller than this ledge.

 

[Older & Uglier]

i have "planned" on getting the Lee Pro 4000 from one of the online places i do business with.

I would go will Dillon. Depending on how much you shot Square Deal at the low end 550 or 650.

i already have the latest Lyman reloading book. i know that the gun powder websites have specs, as well as another book (or 2) will be in my future.

Use on line as much as possible to save $ here.

now, regarding just the gun powder, i'd like "smoke free"? and if so, what do YOU reloaders use for good, dependable, gunpowder for a new guy like me, that right now, just wants, near factory specs. at my age, i am not into competitions, or hot loads, PLUS it is NOT smart to go off the specs for anything BUT factory specs.

All powders smoke some just depends on how much is too much. Uncoated lead bullets contribute to more some than coated or jackets bullets.

as far as primers, i know i'll need (if i can find them) large pistol and small pistol primers. name brand not withstanding, price may dictate what i can buy.

I've had bad experience with Russian primers and pistols. Any of the US will work.

as far as bullets, i have heard of Berry's, and a few others that i have in my search favorite, but what is the general consensus of what YOU buy?

Depends on caliber and gun. I use Precision Bullets in Kemp TX for 45 coated bullets. All other calibers I tend to stick with jacketed or plates. Precision Delta is my go to for everything else. Zero from Roze Diet are great as well. Xtreme plated are good but don't have a lot experience with them as yet. Won't buy from Montana Gold after they accepted a huge order and because some of the product was back-ordered, shipping was delayed. Then, MG jacked the price up and refused to ship until new balance was paided. They would not honor the prices when they accepted the order.

right now, we all know cost is a factor, i clean my guns regularly, so leading may not be an issue, if i do not go FMJ bullets.

If you shoot lead bullets get a Lewis lead cleaner. Brass screen pushed thru barrel. Invaluable if you shoot lead.

also, do ANY of you write down your "recipes" for your reloads, as well as day, date, performance, maybe lot number of the powder, etc, etc?

YES!! And mark you storage containers and keep ammo from separate runs separate so you know what you have and are shooting.

Power

For .45 ACP there are a lot of good powders. Bullseye, Hodgdon Clays, HP-38/231, Unique, VV N320, N330, N340 (VV is expensive but very clean). And, that is just a few. Several of those powders will work very well in 9mm, .40 S&W, Titegroup is my go to for all my 9mm loading but only load 115-124/125 gr bullets. No need for heavier.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Jfal]

i have "planned" on getting the Lee Pro 4000 from one of the online places i do business with.

I would go will Dillon. Depending on how much you shot Square Deal at the low end 550 or 650.

i already have the latest Lyman reloading book. i know that the gun powder websites have specs, as well as another book (or 2) will be in my future.

Use on line as much as possible to save $ here.

now, regarding just the gun powder, i'd like "smoke free"? and if so, what do YOU reloaders use for good, dependable, gunpowder for a new guy like me, that right now, just wants, near factory specs. at my age, i am not into competitions, or hot loads, PLUS it is NOT smart to go off the specs for anything BUT factory specs.

All powders smoke some just depends on how much is too much. Uncoated lead bullets contribute to more some than coated or jackets bullets.

as far as primers, i know i'll need (if i can find them) large pistol and small pistol primers. name brand not withstanding, price may dictate what i can buy.

I've had bad experience with Russian primers and pistols. Any of the US will work.

as far as bullets, i have heard of Berry's, and a few others that i have in my search favorite, but what is the general consensus of what YOU buy?

Depends on caliber and gun. I use Precision Bullets in Kemp TX for 45 coated bullets. All other calibers I tend to stick with jacketed or plates. Precision Delta is my go to for everything else. Zero from Roze Diet are great as well. Xtreme plated are good but don't have a lot experience with them as yet. Won't buy from Montana Gold after they accepted a huge order and because some of the product was back-ordered, shipping was delayed. Then, MG jacked the price up and refused to ship until new balance was paided. They would not honor the prices when they accepted the order.

right now, we all know cost is a factor, i clean my guns regularly, so leading may not be an issue, if i do not go FMJ bullets.

If you shoot lead bullets get a Lewis lead cleaner. Brass screen pushed thru barrel. Invaluable if you shoot lead.

also, do ANY of you write down your "recipes" for your reloads, as well as day, date, performance, maybe lot number of the powder, etc, etc?

YES!! And mark you storage containers and keep ammo from separate runs separate so you know what you have and are shooting.

Power

For .45 ACP there are a lot of good powders. Bullseye, Hodgdon Clays, HP-38/231, Unique, VV N320, N330, N340 (VV is expensive but very clean). And, that is just a few. Several of those powders will work very well in 9mm, .40 S&W, Titegroup is my go to for all my 9mm loading but only load 115-124/125 gr bullets. No need for heavier.

Hope this is helpful.

O&U, the second-to-last sentence from your post might get some folks on this forum in a tizzy....I've read several folks talk about 147grain 9mm as the be-all, end-all for 9mm bullet weights. Me? I have no opinion here. If no one else says it, I liked your reply to Old_Me...very comprehensive.

 

[Older & Uglier]

O&U, the second-to-last sentence from your post might get some folks on this forum in a tizzy....I've read several folks talk about 147grain 9mm as the be-all, end-all for 9mm bullet weights. Me? I have no opinion here. If no one else says it, I liked your reply to Old_Me...very comprehensive.

Thank you.

 

[Old_Me]

ok, dreary day, raw, damp.......

i went and got 2 more hanging flower plants, did some errands, and got home.

i did a few web sites searching, played M$ Solitaire until about 9 AM......this after being wake since 5 AM.

went down to the basement, took the coverings off of the Dillon and Lee.

my day today was going to be dedicated to the Dillon, and finalizing dialing in the powder charge, the last adjustment for me to make.

it was HORRENDOUS...!!!!!

the guy i bought he press from, backed out the powder drop..!!

meaning, that as i did the first "dummy round" for the powder..??

POWDER ALL OVER THE PRESS, AND FLOOR...!!!!!

i could NOT swear enough...!!!!!!!

i'm dialing in, dialing in, dialing in that adjustment screw....and i'm STILL getting powder spilling..>!!

so i continue to turn in that screw, all this, going counter-clockwise, to slow it down, you Dillon guys know what i mean.

FINALLY, NOTHING drops out of the funnel.......(i only filled the container of gun powder about 1/4)

now, i SLOWLY open up the funnel, and the powder comes out, SLOWLY....

but something is STILL wrong..>!!!!!!

i zeroed in the Hornady digital scale.....perfecto...!!!!

but i'm still getting powder up to the top of the shell casing....!!

like WTF....??

oh.........

i had it set to grams.........NOT grains........dumbass..........

finally, i get the 3.4 GRAINS of powder that is required for starters reloading....

load up the primer pick up tube...PERFECTO......except......PLING, DING, WHOOSH, goes the hairpin clip that holds the primers in the tube...!!

but wait...I HEAR IT, hit the wall, and i know where it fell........but i couldn't find it.......

will this day ever produce any reloads..???

so i had an extra hairpin clip...thank god for spare parts...eh..??

dump the primers, only 20 of them, into the tube.

put the first shell casing into the Dillon....

pop out the old primer, turn the shell casing to the powder drop, dropped powder....

and dropped, and dropped.....LIKE WTF NOW..???

dumbass...i didn't remember to even seat the new primer......JESUS H. CHRIST..>!!!

then the next shell casing......i put that one in sorta cockeyed....it jammed the press.

i had to use vice grips to yank it out....

like for the love of God, and all that's holy..........

the next 18 went off with out a hitch...

measured EACH one, plunked EACH one in the gauge block, and then the Canik barrel.

nearly all of them "rotate" in the barrel, i had to constantly wipe off some of the wax(?) from the lead cast bullets.

but they all plunk...!!!!!

i only did 20 for today, and remember, i said i started after 9 AM..??

1:30 PM, i finished 20 rounds....

like god forbid i should have reloaded a whole 50 rounds.....it would have been Wednesday before i finished...

but, i did have laundry in the machines, i had to take at least 3 bathroom breaks (old man stuff), and my Canik magazines arrives, so i had to check them out as well.........

my "plan" today was to do 20 9mm on the Dillon, and 8 .45ACP on the Lee.........

but as 1 PM was nearing, my eyes where closing......1PM is not Miller time, but NAP time for me......

all in all, i will over come the reloading trials and tribulations.

oh yeah, that hairpin retainer for the primer collector tube..??

I found it...!!

landed in the concrete mixing pan, right behind me.....

some days, you win ONE......!!!

i'll have measurements for another posting.........i was too tired to go back down to the basement.

 

[jumpinjoe]

If I'm understanding you correctly in that you had to 'yank' a 'cock-eyed' primer out with vice grips ..... be very careful. A primer is in fact an 'explosive', albeit a small one, but it is a much bigger one that you can imagine for such a small item. Always wear eye protection when dealing with primers under even the best of conditions, and especially pulling one out with vice grips.

One of those little buggers can cause some real damage to your eyes, or your fingers, or even more if the one that goes boom is in close proximity to several/many others.