The Noble (but Doomed) M551 Sheridan in Vietnam
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Cedric
Custom
If it had the 152mm HEAT round would have dealt a death blow. At Graf one year, there were three "new" M47 hulks down range for us to fire service HEAT. By the time we rolled off the range they were nothing but piles of metallic dust.
Talyn
SAINT
One Iraqi M59 (Chinese-produced T-54) was reported destroyed, with the MGM-51 Shillelagh.
In the absence of any valid documentation I simply do not believe such a report. It would have been the most publicized tank kill since WWII, though it would have had no impact on the vehicle generally as they were being pulled from regular service by the '80's (apart from the 37th AR). I have some very extensive digitized files from the Patton Museum prior to BRAC. Nothing like that in there.
It took a very long time to address the issues of "premature detonation" of the XM409 HEAT round. And there were two types of PD failure....in-tube and just beyond the muzzle. The were repeated appeals from Combat Dev. Cmd. to not field it with HEAT. The probability of "catastrophic failure" went up exponentially with HEAT & CDC advocated that if it was fielded, a letter to the Deputy Chief of Staff-U.S. Army should be sent noting the risks to crews in fielding it. This was WITHOUT the combustible case issue.
The ultimate irony was that, at the same time as "two box" Sheridans were being fielded to Vietnam without missile capability, perhaps Sheridans going elsewhere (Germany) be ONLY Shillelagh-capable and no HEAT round fielded.
Think about what that says.
I'm sorry I missed it, but that was at least five years after my service.
Cedric
Custom
I know what that says. It's just another indicator that the brainiacs were infatuated with missiles. But then again that crowd was always mesmerized by silver bullet solutions. MBT-70 was an example of carrying forward of the missile is all syndrome. The line leadership was so grateful we and the Germans pulled out of that mess.
g
Talyn
SAINT
One previous reference says it did and this one says it didn't. So goes the story.
The reports that precipitated the near-mystic belief in guided missilery, "ARCOVE" and "Mobility, Firepower & Protection" fairly gushed with fanboy language extolling the virtues of this solution. It was also an attempt to leapfrog technology rather than the typical measure/counter-measure solutions. There was a "Manhattan Project" mentality about it.
Sadly, Redstone Arsenal & Missile Command (MICOM) took their advocacy to unethical levels in "reporting" performance. Further to that, the Shillelagh program had the most convoluted & confusing series of managing organizations that it defied a comprehensible explanation. This is documented in some of the most cryptic language that even the Redstone historians had difficulty putting into words. "History of the Shillelagh Missile System 1958-1982" by DeLong, et. al is sadly no longer online that I can find. Fortunately I had saved it years before that happened.
When the Sheridan program was merged with Shillelagh in 1964, the fix was in.
Tumbleweed1954
Alpha
The photo of the Sheridan firing a Shillelagh was taken at Yuma Proving Ground in 1965. Not Redstone. It is XM551 Pilot #12.
Tumbleweed1954
Alpha
This is an M551A1. The Laser Range Finder is seen below the Cal .50 mount.
Always Ahead
Alpha
Actually, we didn't get M-60s to replace the Sheridans in Fulda, Germany, 11th ACR. It was a sad day. I loved the Sheridan, I felt like I was running knee-deep in mud in an M-60.
Below are my two "wonderful" trips to Grafenwöhr, Germany. That's where we qualified tank crews. After we got the 60s, we had to go to Wildflecken to learn how to shoot them before we went to Graf to qualify on them.
Attachments
I believe I recognize the handwriting on that photo....is that you, Vic, or Mark with one of Vic's pictures? The login name also is familiar as being Mark's.
As I suspect you may know, the Hughes LRF was my first Test Project at the Armor Board after DEROS from Vietnam. Are you the familiar "Tumbleweed" from days past?
Attachments
Tumbleweed1954
Alpha
Yes, it's Mark with Vic's photo. Doug?
Roger that.
Eric Greenheart
Alpha
I‘d like to chime in here. I‘m not an expert on armored warfare or a military historian but I did crew on the M551 from 1974-1977, stateside and in Germany. I loved that vehicle. It was fast, maneuverable, mechanically reliable, and easy to work on. We pulled our pac and installed a new one in 90 minutes. I loaded, drove, gunned and commanded the M551 over the course of my enlistment. I loved driving it, I once drove for 18 hours straight until I fell asleep at the T-bar and my TC traded places with me. You couldn’t get me out of the driver seat! I never threw a track. Saw M6Os buried up to the hull in mud, poor bastards. Never had a M88 pull us out of trouble either. We did snap the turret lock and destroyed a M209 ( dumb ass armorer gave my 1911 to a West Point LT training with us) when my driver hit a tree. Our escape hatch fell off a few times. Didn’t care much for the coax mg, never seemed to work electrically but worked fine manually. Hated the main gun ( conventional round ) rubber sleeves, we used to cut slits in them making it easier to pull them off during tank gunnery. We also put those rubbers over our grenade lauchers to protect them from debris. I swam the Sheridan twice, once in training at FT. Knox and once at FT. Hood. That was fun (terrifying when I think back). Firing HEAT rounds at night was damn cool. How about the main gun recoil!!! Rock and roll! When I was a driver I cut the heater duct that fed the turret and directed it back towards me, ha! Dudes in the turret were always complaining about how crappy the heater worked, little did they know! I‘d fold the driver seat back and slept sideways in the driver compartment. Woke up more than once soaking wet from melted snow or rain. I’ve got lots of memories, good and bad, crewing the Sheridan. Even in peace time this was dangerous business. If you didn’t pay attention you got hurt, sometimes killed. I saw plenty of guys get hurt. If I had to do it all over again I would in a heart beat! I was not a great soldier, by any stretch of the imagination but I loved my time in that vehicle. Every minute of it! It was truly an honor to serve with some great men and the best thing I ever did as a young man. The M551 was my first love, sometimes troublesome but she never let me down! 11D/R8.
Attachments
Cedric
Custom
I
I don't disagree with your assessment. I loved the thing automotively, and as you said, we went places where the tank company either bogged down or would avoid entirely. We were the first squadron to get the laser rangefinder and it was damn reliable. The electrical system depended on the same voltage regulator in the M113 and was nowhere near as robust as it needed to be. But we made it work.
Do you recall the year your received the A1 and did you get TTS at the same time? I was on the Hughes LRF Test Project on M551 in '72 (pictured in a post above) & it was indeed a reliable item (unlike the rest of the FCS). We completed the TP in '72 & used the same system on the M60A2 Initial Production Test the next year.