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Is the .45’s Stopping Power a Myth?

Going back about 10-12 years I had multiple (12) semi auto handguns in 9mm, 40, and 45 and although I tried over those multiple years to carry each one at different times my go to concealed carry gun was my Mod2 sub compact 40
I no longer have a 9mm gun…..
I currently have only 3 semi auto handguns, 45ACP 10mm and my favorite Mod2 Sub Compact, I will never get rid of my Mod2 40.
When campground hosting in Montana (bear country) I carried my 10mm
“not concealed” in the campground. currently in Texas it’s my 45ACP concealed.
Ok…. All that being said…..
What I have now…. 40, 45 and 10mm
I shoot very well and I’m able to conceal carry and feel comfortable and confident in their stopping power.
Yes I do have two revolvers, 1 in 357/38 and 1 in 38 however I just can’t bring myself to carry something that’s limited to just 6 rounds. In conclusion…..
Size of hole matters but I believe shot placement and situational awareness is paramount so practice, practice, practice…..
 
A .45 Auto FMJ will generally cycle reliably, make a big hole, and penetrate well for most defensive purposes. With the 9mm the design of the bullet provides the extra sauce — but, you have to hope that the expanding bullet design actually works as advertised when you need it to.

The .357 Magnum 125 grain has a very good reputation as a defensive round (which is probably why Sig spent the time and money to develop their .357 Sig).

If the shooter can handle the 10mm, then interesting choices become available. A lightweight bullet (135 or 155 grain) will travel reliably very fast (good). It will produce a 10mm hole (obviously marginally bigger than a 9mm but smaller than a .45), and if the bullet loaded is one of those new fangled solid flute type bullets, cycling should be as reliable as a FMJ, penetration should be very good as the bullet is a solid and won’t expand or fragment, and the wound cavity should be reliably good as there is no hollow point to clog, break apart, or just somehow not expand well.

Something like this should be in the running for the best all around defensive caliber/bullet weight/ bullet design:

https://underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto...n-solid-monolithic-hunting-self-defense-ammo/
 
Lab Us said:
I don’t recommend using that as a guide. Because lots of cops do blind mag dumps at suspects with zero attempts at aiming, it’s not really hard to believe it takes more rounds since very few likely hit the subject. If you remember the acorn hitting the roof video, don’t recall how many shots were fired…nobody hit who they thought was a threat. I don’t think it’s a secret most officers do their annual qualification and that’s it…I doubt those types are very skilled at shot placement.

One or two well placed 9mm SD rounds will certainly stop a subject, as will well placed .45 SD rounds. Add armor or some psycho narcotic and all bets are off regardless of caliber.
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Add armor and it doesn’t matter what caliber of handgun you’re shooting; armor stops it.
 
Tonopah said:
A .45 Auto FMJ will generally cycle reliably, make a big hole, and penetrate well for most defensive purposes. With the 9mm the design of the bullet provides the extra sauce — but, you have to hope that the expanding bullet design actually works as advertised when you need it to.

The .357 Magnum 125 grain has a very good reputation as a defensive round (which is probably why Sig spent the time and money to develop their .357 Sig).

If the shooter can handle the 10mm, then interesting choices become available. A lightweight bullet (135 or 155 grain) will travel reliably very fast (good). It will produce a 10mm hole (obviously marginally bigger than a 9mm but smaller than a .45), and if the bullet loaded is one of those new fangled solid flute type bullets, cycling should be as reliable as a FMJ, penetration should be very good as the bullet is a solid and won’t expand or fragment, and the wound cavity should be reliably good as there is no hollow point to clog, break apart, or just somehow not expand well.

Something like this should be in the running for the best all around defensive caliber/bullet weight/ bullet design:

https://underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto...n-solid-monolithic-hunting-self-defense-ammo/
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Something like that is snake oil.

Armed professionals run JHP’s, for good reason.
 
For civilian carry: I believe any cartridge will do the job. Getting shot at will get someone running. That's what we want. The bad guy's behavior will change, and he'll run. Civilians don't need to STOP the guy and prevent him from getting away. Cops have that duty. We don't. I like the idea of the guy running away instead of bleeding or dying in my house. Let the police follow the blood trail. Carry anything you want. My EDC is a RIA M206 38 Spl handloaded with powder coated 158 gr LSWCs at 700 fps. I carry a speedloader on my belt.

I practiced with, competed with, and carried a Springfield 1911 for over 30 years and put 150,000+ rounds thru it. I've changed my mind about what's necessary for EDC after watching almost every post on the Active Self Protection youtube channel I don't have to believe the stories of keyboard warriors. I have seen what really happens.
 
‘In the end, hit potential was the same between the three different pistols, but I was able to run the 9mm pistol measurably faster. Felt recoil in the .40 variant was a bit snappier — more so than the .45 ACP — but I didn’t consider any of the test trio to be difficult to control when firing in a rapid cadence.” Mike Boyle

‘In the end…’ as Col Cooper would agree ‘shot placement.’ More ammo, usually means more missing the target. Where did that first round hit? Gun fights are over in a split second, as per the veterans of gun fights. I have two brothers that are in LEF, and they both agree if you cannot hit the target with a seven rounds, you definitely need to practice.
 
When my wife and I visited the police training range at Lake of the Ozarks, MO (Open to the public on Sundays), and I instructed her on how to load and fire my large-frame S&W stainless 45acp model 4506 that I inherited from my Dad. She is "smaller" framed (much smaller than me), and on her first volley, she put all 10 rounds in the head of the silhouette target at 30'. I'll never forget the rangemasters comment to me after he witnessed her performance when he said "I wouldn't **** her off!", and of course I have always heeded those words in 47 years of marital bliss!!!
 
kvondrasek said:
When my wife and I visited the police training range at Lake of the Ozarks, MO (Open to the public on Sundays), and I instructed her on how to load and fire my large-frame S&W stainless 45acp model 4506 that I inherited from my Dad. She is "smaller" framed (much smaller than me), and on her first volley, she put all 10 rounds in the head of the silhouette target at 30'. I'll never forget the rangemasters comment to me after he witnessed her performance when he said "I wouldn't **** her off!", and of course I have always heeded those words in 47 years of marital bliss!!!
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Amen…
 
I seem to be asleep at the switch when these discussions get started, but I'll chime in my .02. I am a small framed female with child sized hands. I am no expert, in fact I barely would consider myself an intermediate. I cut my teeth on the 9mm cartridge, but I did have one on one interaction with an instructor who introduced me to several calibers from .22lr to .38 special, et al. I went with the 9mm for hand comfort and price point of the ammunition. I picked up on .45ACP along the way, and I have no issues with the feel of my 1911s or felt recoil of the 45. In fact, I love how the 45s feel, the added power felt when I shoot them.

Now, when @Mike H. mentioned cold weather clothing, it gave me something to think about. I have recently started working with a S&W M&P45C. I have no problem with it at all, I like how it shoots and I do carry it when we are up north. I'm beginning to think I should be carrying it, or perhaps another pistol chambered in 45ACP in the winter months. I cross country ski (when we have snow, last year was a bust), and I am always alone on those trails. I'm thinking I will be training more with the big cartridge...at least to the same extent I do with my 9mm pistols.
 
3L120 said:
I actually prefer this round, 175mm out of a M107. The thought of a 147 Pound projectile leaving the muzzle at the same speed as a 147 grain bullet out of a M-14 always fascinated me. Not very accurate at charge 3 ( of powder) range, but I used them at 5-6 klicks and they were accurate enough for my purposes, killing NVA.
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FB_IMG_1527040007621.jpg

The M107 was replaced by the M110A2 which was phased out in favor of the M109 series.

I actually served in the Last M110A2 unit in the Army (2/157th FA Colorado NG) and shot the last 8 inch round ever fired by the United States.

I never served in a 107 unit but my understanding is they weren't accurate at long range and they were maintenance intensive because the higher pressure of the rounds.

I've talked to some people who were in the Army Longer And they're shocked Wanted to tell them that we never used a GPS and that we actually had to do our firing solutions with a calculator and a map.
 
Steve D said:
For civilian carry: I believe any cartridge will do the job. Getting shot at will get someone running. That's what we want. The bad guy's behavior will change, and he'll run. Civilians don't need to STOP the guy and prevent him from getting away. Cops have that duty. We don't. I like the idea of the guy running away instead of bleeding or dying in my house. Let the police follow the blood trail. Carry anything you want. My EDC is a RIA M206 38 Spl handloaded with powder coated 158 gr LSWCs at 700 fps. I carry a speedloader on my belt.

I practiced with, competed with, and carried a Springfield 1911 for over 30 years and put 150,000+ rounds thru it. I've changed my mind about what's necessary for EDC after watching almost every post on the Active Self Protection youtube channel I don't have to believe the stories of keyboard warriors. I have seen what really happens.
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That’s one argument; and one that I tend to agree with. The vast majority of defensive gun uses end successfully with the caliber not being an issue whatsoever.

The other side, however, is what the dark pessimistic side of my brain whispers to me late at night—and that is, what happens when you deal with an assailant that just doesn’t care—reasons could be pharmacological, psychological, physiological; doesn’t really matter—and multiple shots aren’t going to be an option?

It’s gonna be one shot, quick, from the hip at best, no time to place it perfect?

It’s hard to argue that bigger isn’t better. “Energy dump” is hokum—what you want is a big, deep hole…

And in that realm, .45 is hard to beat.
 
HansGruber said:
That’s one argument; and one that I tend to agree with. The vast majority of defensive gun uses end successfully with the caliber not being an issue whatsoever.

The other side, however, is what the dark pessimistic side of my brain whispers to me late at night—and that is, what happens when you deal with an assailant that just doesn’t care—reasons could be pharmacological, psychological, physiological; doesn’t really matter—and multiple shots aren’t going to be an option?

It’s gonna be one shot, quick, from the hip at best, no time to place it perfect?

It’s hard to argue that bigger isn’t better. “Energy dump” is hokum—what you want is a big, deep hole…

And in that realm, .45 is hard to beat.
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agree with both of you
 
I've talked about this before.

When I worked for HSS and Allied I carried a 9mm. G4S issued me an M&P40.

I never ran into a crackhead that seemed impressed at all by the fact that I had a gun.

Some of them yelled at me, some of them screamed at me, some of them attacked me knowing that I was armed with a gun.

But when I pulled out the OC they backed down immediately.

I honestly believe that none of them ever actually considered that I would shoot them but every single one of them absolutely believed that I would spray them.
 
HansGruber said:
Something like that is snake oil.

Armed professionals run JHP’s, for good reason.
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I think you may be dismissing this type of bullet too quickly. What is attractive about this type of monolithic bullet is that even if it doesn’t perform magic, at least it feeds well and penetrates well — like FMJ. It is unlikely to fragment when it hits bone. If it can create a large wound cavity as well, then it would be a nice defensive choice.

I am using the 90 grain in my .380s. Hollow points in .380s are unreliable (sometimes they expand ok and sometimes not). If they expand, generally the penetration is poor. A lot of folks just use FMJ in the .380 because they want the penetration (and reliable cycling). The Lehigh bullet gives you that plus the possibility of a good wound channel.
 
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Tonopah said:
I think you may be dismissing this type of bullet too quickly. What is attractive about this type of monolithic bullet is that even if it doesn’t perform magic, at least it feeds well and penetrates well — like FMJ. It is unlikely to fragment when it hits bone. If it can create a large wound cavity as well, then it would be a nice defensive choice.

I am using the 90 grain in my .380s. Hollow points in .380s are unreliable (sometimes they expand ok and sometimes not). If they expand, generally the penetration is poor. A lot of folks just use FMJ in the .380 because they want the penetration (and reliable cycling). The Lehigh bullet gives you that plus the possibility of a good wound channel.
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These bullets have been around for 10+ years. If they were as good as they claim, there’d be top-tier guys using them. They don’t.

Those neat-o gel test? They ignore one very important, basic fact—that gel is only designed to test expansion/permanent cavity and penetration. These tests are trying to sell you on temporary cavity cracks on relatively inelastic gel as being equivalent as damage in highly elastic living tissue. It’s not, and they know it; that’s why it’s snake oil.

As for feeding reliability…that’s why you test your carry ammo in your chosen firearm; you should do it with these screwdriver tips as well. Never met a (quality) pistol that won’t feed most types of quality JHP; this included several 1911’s, from manufacturers from RIA to Les Baer and Wilson Combat.

Or just carry a revolver.

In .380? I’ll just carry a flat-nosed FMJ for less than half the price and be able to practice with what I carry. Permanent wound channel will be the same (again—not buying the “magic cavitation wave” snake oil).

If it makes you warm & fuzzy to spend a whole lot more for ammo that isn’t proven in street shoots, that’s your call.

Me? I stick with what the pros in the know use.
 
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