reloading questions/advice if you would please?

[Old_Me]

This post will be very figurative only because I'm really not absolutely sure of your recipe for your 45's, so I'm guessing at best on some things and don't want to steer you wrong.

Earlier most of what I took from what you wrote seemed to be leaning more to frangible bullets than to cast lead but up to this point wasn't a real issue. I wasn't quite sure why it seemed that way, but up till now I didn't see any real issues. But now you've entered a number which I believe to be a 'Min OAL' which in some cases is a critical measurement.

Building a too short cartridge is indicative of possible too high pressures. In your/this case it probably won't be an issue due to your stating the starting charge of 3.0grs of powder, but we don't know what powder you're using as far as I can recall. Remember, different powders can/will/do produce different pressure curves when ignited.

So, accepting you're using the minimum starting load for your particular powder in your chosen cartridge (45 Auto), and that the majority of loads shown in most of my literature for the 230 gr lead bullet show min OAL of around 1.200", and the .001" in question is probably due to measuring error, and that the majority of loads we're discussing are on the lower end of pressure ratings, you will probably be OK.

Please keep in mind I'm not advising you to go ahead and shoot them, just my best guess based on info I have. Me personally, I would pull them and reload them just to be sure. Remember, I told you I was a remnant/left over from many years of competition reloading and always strive for the 'inth' degree of consistency as well as safety. And finally, I'd appreciate your providing us a complete recipe of the load you're using. You may have provided it over time, but I don't seem to have the whole thing.

In the meantime, be careful, be sure, and be safe in your loading and your shooting.

Bullseye powder

all the cartridges, plunk test great, both in the gauge block, and the barrel.

all the cartridges, "turn" in the barrel as well.

that one that is "shorter" 1.209, i measured it several times, as i do all my cartridges.

i just do not know why that one came out that short, unless i used "too much" pulling on the handle, which try not to, but then again, as on the Dillon, i did not use "enough" pulling on the handle, and the bullets did not seat perfectly.

it's something i gotta learn to do the same way each time, on each press.


thanks, and no, i will not be competing against anyone or any clock

strictly target/plinking shooting.



if i got time today, i may pull that 1 bullet apart, and re-do it. but i may want to re-adjust all the dies on that Lee first.

i was sure when i had set it up weeks ago, i had them all dialed in, except the powder drop, which i did last, as i took several measurements, and plunk tests.

thanks again.

 

[youngolddude]

The difference between your short and long cartridges is pretty large. I would guess a more normal difference would be maybe .005. 3 gr. of Bullseye is less than the minimum load I've seen for .45 acp and a 230 gr. bullet. Lyman shows 4.0 gr. for a 225 gr. bullet with a round nose. They also show 1.272" for the OAL.
When you run your press, do 10 rounds and check every one. Powder charge and OAL. When I switch over, I check every round initially, then every few and then run them. Once I am satisfied, the powder weight will be within .1 gr. and OAL will be within .005. In the course of a large run, a cursory check of OAL will ensure you're good. Bullet lube and shavings will interfere with good ammo if the dies collect it. Twice this year I had dies gum up the works and I had to really clean them and set them up again. This is why I am switching to polymer coated lead to see if they stay cleaner. This is also why many shooters choose jacketed or brass plated bullets.
Once you gain experience, you will feel when the operation isn't right and stop to investigate.

 

[Old_Me]

The difference between your short and long cartridges is pretty large. I would guess a more normal difference would be maybe .005. 3 gr. of Bullseye is less than the minimum load I've seen for .45 acp and a 230 gr. bullet. Lyman shows 4.0 gr. for a 225 gr. bullet with a round nose. They also show 1.272" for the OAL.
When you run your press, do 10 rounds and check every one. Powder charge and OAL. When I switch over, I check every round initially, then every few and then run them. Once I am satisfied, the powder weight will be within .1 gr. and OAL will be within .005. In the course of a large run, a cursory check of OAL will ensure you're good. Bullet lube and shavings will interfere with good ammo if the dies collect it. Twice this year I had dies gum up the works and I had to really clean them and set them up again. This is why I am switching to polymer coated lead to see if they stay cleaner. This is also why many shooters choose jacketed or brass plated bullets.
Once you gain experience, you will feel when the operation isn't right and stop to investigate.

yeah, in fact, a short time ago, i ran one case and bullet thru the Lee, with no primer and no powder, the OAL was the same as all the others. i do not know why that particular one came up that short.

i am sure i read 3.0 grains for the 230 grain bullet. lead bullet.....that is.

if i did not seat the bullets as deep as i did? the ogive(??) measurement would not allow the bullet to plunk

as i was setting up the Lee, and even the DIllon in fact, the seating depth had to be smaller/lower than the book, due to the bullets ogive(??) measurement?

but i can check that later for sure.

as far as bullets go, if i can find poly coated ones, in the future, i may very well buy them. right now, i have the few lead ones. i cannot purchase anymore right now.

thanks

 

[youngolddude]

Check every book/source for your 230 gr. and Bullseye load, 3 gr. isn't enough according to published loads. I checked 3 books.
I don't follow your ogive and measure comments. Currently, you have a given setting on your seating die. If you load 3 different bullet shapes, one pointy, one more rounded and one with a broad flat point, you will likely find 3 different OAL's. Your job is to adjust to the acceptable OAL for the ogive you are using, period.

 

[Old_Me]

Check every book/source for your 230 gr. and Bullseye load, 3 gr. isn't enough according to published loads. I checked 3 books.
I don't follow your ogive and measure comments. Currently, you have a given setting on your seating die. If you load 3 different bullet shapes, one pointy, one more rounded and one with a broad flat point, you will likely find 3 different OAL's. Your job is to adjust to the acceptable OAL for the ogive you are using, period.

Lyman, 50th edition book, page 446

Bullseye 3.0 grain

225gr bullet

225 #2 alloy

1.265 OAL

it's what i followed.

i am still waiting on reloading books.

i also pulled that shorter cartridge and resized it, it is now at 1.244, like many of the others.

 

[youngolddude]

The page I pasted in my last response was from Lyman's 48th manual. 225 gr. which notes 4.0 as the minimum.
Here are others:
Reloaders Guide by Hercules (Bullseye) copywrite 1983- 4.0 gr. 230 Lead no shape given
Lyman 45th (1970)- 3.5-4.7 225 gr. cast, no shape given
Lyman 47th- 4.0- 5.0 225 gr. RN
Lyman Cast Bullet- 4.0-5.0 225 gr. RN
Laser Cast Handbook-4.5-5.1 230 RN
Modern Reloading by Lee-4.0-4.0 230 gr lead, no shape given 1.190 Minimum OAL
Mod Reloading by Lee 2nd Ed.- 4.0-4.6, 200 gr. lead no shape given 1.190 Minimum OAL. In this edition, Bullseye wasn't listed for a 230 gr. lead bullet, but from these other examples, I would say 4.0 gr. is the minimum. They do list jacketed bullets with Bullseye, but you can't compare the charges directly.

I'm including this because I don't want anything bad to happen.

 

[jumpinjoe]

The page I pasted in my last response was from Lyman's 48th manual. 225 gr. which notes 4.0 as the minimum.
Here are others:
Reloaders Guide by Hercules (Bullseye) copywrite 1983- 4.0 gr. 230 Lead no shape given
Lyman 45th (1970)- 3.5-4.7 225 gr. cast, no shape given
Lyman 47th- 4.0- 5.0 225 gr. RN
Lyman Cast Bullet- 4.0-5.0 225 gr. RN
Laser Cast Handbook-4.5-5.1 230 RN
Modern Reloading by Lee-4.0-4.0 230 gr lead, no shape given 1.190 Minimum OAL
Mod Reloading by Lee 2nd Ed.- 4.0-4.6, 200 gr. lead no shape given 1.190 Minimum OAL. In this edition, Bullseye wasn't listed for a 230 gr. lead bullet, but from these other examples, I would say 4.0 gr. is the minimum. They do list jacketed bullets with Bullseye, but you can't compare the charges directly.

I'm including this because I don't want anything bad to happen.

youngolddude, I'm glad you pulled all that together since I no longer have all my loading manuals. I was a little concerned with some of the numbers we were seeing.

Old_Me, please pay attention to these numbers. Some of the info you were relaying was a little concerning. See how these compare to the numbers you are using and let us know.

Something else of concern is how you keep referring to the 'Plunk' block test, and the difference between the min 'OAL' and the "COL' lengths. The min 'OAL' is typically the way to identify the min safe length, based on the recipe you're using. Try to visualize that the shorter the min 'OAL' is (bullet pushed into the case a little deeper), the smaller the capacity inside the case is for the pressure to start building once the powder is ignited (small case capacity = potentially higher pressures). The 'plunk' block is only telling you that the COL (Cartridge Overall Length) is sufficiently short enough to fit into the average SAAMI chamber. It does not tell you whether or not the cartridge is too short. And a 'too short' min OAL can be dangerous due to pressure curves from whatever powder you're using ............ that's not to say it will always be dangerous, just that it could be.

NOTE: 'OAL' and 'COL' are often used interchangeably and they should not be. Min 'OAL' in a recipe is the shortest any cartridge should be when using a given projectile since heavier bullets are typically longer bullets. Shorter bullets can be pushed into the case for a shorter 'OAL' without causing a too small case capacity. 'COL' = "Cartridge Overall Length" means the total overall length of the finished cartridge.

If the 'plunk' test indicates a 'too long' COL, at that point you still don't know whether it's due to a 'too long' COL, or an insufficiently sized case and/or crimp. And if a load shows up 'too long', the solution is not just to push the projectile in a little deeper. You first need to determine why it appears to be 'too long'. In other words whether the problem is simply a 'too long' COL, or an issue with the case itself.

Old_Me, in trying to find some better and easier way to explain to you some of the issues, I found this "1911 forum" site that goes into some detail and maybe a little easier to understand. Take a look at it, read the entire page and see if it doesn't help clear up some confusion. Here's the link:

Plunk Test

If a reloaded cartridge does not pass the "plunk test" quite as easily as a factory round, is that not to be somewhat expected? I am just starting to reload .45 ACP, using 230 Gr commercial cast bullets Lee dies. With the slightest of flare, and also of crimp, the dummy round drops into the...

www.1911forum.com

 

[Old_Me]

thanks @jumpinjoe

in this diagram, from the first posting in fact, all my 45's are at the #2 in the diagram....."ok, normal head space"

then there is this, which i have been told.....

"OAL is always Firearm and Bullet specific, Not manual specific. If your handloads do not fit, then you are most likely Not under max for YOUR pistol."

which is why i had both the Canik 9mm barrel and the Tisas 1911 barrel near me for final "plunk" test.

yes too, i am also concerned about pressures inside the cartridge, which is why i chose the 3.0 gr over the 4.0 gr.

but still too, i do not know why, the Lyman book had both specs for the same bullet?

and we all know that even new factory ammo, does not shoot in all guns. what's the first thing many recommend to a person when the gun has ammo problems???

try another brand, right??

 

[jumpinjoe]

thanks @jumpinjoe

in this diagram, from the first posting in fact, all my 45's are at the #2 in the diagram....."ok, normal head space"

View attachment 27424

then there is this, which i have been told.....
If they all looked like image #2, they should all load, fire and extract correctly.

which is why i had both the Canik 9mm barrel and the Tisas 1911 barrel near me for final "plunk" test.
The barrel 'plunk' test is the one to go by.

yes too, i am also concerned about pressures inside the cartridge, which is why i chose the 3.0 gr over the 4.0 gr.
Well, don't have access to any of my old loading manuals anymore since I moved, but in looking around some I haven't found the exact recipe you say you're using. The lowest charge I can find so far is 4.0grns with a 230gr projectile. Obviously I have no comment on the next statement.
but still too, i do not know why, the Lyman book had both specs for the same bullet?

and we all know that even new factory ammo, does not shoot in all guns. what's the first thing many recommend to a person when the gun has ammo problems??
try another brand, right??9
This statement is usually directed towards factory ammo that isn't functional or inherently inaccurate in your gun.

OK, I'm gonna try to answer all this the best I can by entering my response within your post above ...... all my reply will be in RED text. In looking around to better help you I found this exchange on another forum that provides a much better explanation than I did regarding 'OAL' vs 'COL'. It seems these days they are used more interchangeably than I had thought. As I read this I get the impression they are interchangeable as long as there is a preceding qualifier.

Edit: Sorry it took so long to get back to you... I was tested positive for Covid Sunday afternoon and just haven't felt like playing on the 'puter since then. Some better now, so we'll see.

Sorry I forgot to add the link:
https://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1157625

 

[Colt45]

ok, so i got that new credit card the other day, but sleep schedules have been off, so to order what i want will actually be for another day.

i have "planned" on getting the Lee Pro 4000 from one of the online places i do business with.

my first choice of ammo to reload will be .45 ACP, as this is my favorite to shoot.

i "may" buy other dies and plates for (maybe) 38 special, 357, 9mm, and maybe 44 special (even though i haven't any 44 caliber gun, and may never own a 44 caliber gun. my "thoughts" are geared up, for when i go to sell the equipment, i can offer more to the buyer and not limit myself to only the .45 ACP, if you get what i mean?

ok, so i got a hold of a possible purchase of used tumbler and digital scale (Frankford Arsenal) from a RSO.

then i still need a bullet puller, case gauges (maybe one block, rather than separate ones) and a few other odds and ends, like a digital caliper for OAL measurements.

i already have the latest Lyman reloading book. i know that the gun powder websites have specs, as well as another book (or 2) will be in my future.

now, regarding just the gun powder, i'd like "smoke free"? and if so, what do YOU reloaders use for good, dependable, gunpowder for a new guy like me, that right now, just wants, near factory specs. at my age, i am not into competitions, or hot loads, PLUS it is NOT smart to go off the specs for anything BUT factory specs.

as far as primers, i know i'll need (if i can find them) large pistol and small pistol primers. name brand not withstanding, price may dictate what i can buy.

as far as bullets, i have heard of Berry's, and a few others that i have in my search favorite, but what is the general consensus of what YOU buy?

right now, we all know cost is a factor, i clean my guns regularly, so leading may not be an issue, if i do not go FMJ bullets.

also, do ANY of you write down your "recipes" for your reloads, as well as day, date, performance, maybe lot number of the powder, etc, etc?

i will have other questions in the near future, thanks in advance to all that read and help, advise, recommend..!!

I also like WW231 for 45 ACP it meters well and is very consistent. I tried many powders and settled on WW231. Accurate is also a good powder. Also casted my own bullets. I have shot a lot of Berry's bullets over the decades and find them excellent. You could also try Blue Bullets as well-high quality. 6% antimony minimum for hardness. 12% is better but hard to find as it is linotype lead either has VERY minimal leading. I was also fond of Sierra 180gr JHC absolutely loved that bullet. So accurate. When you buy any bullets make sure they are .451 diameter as .452 may cause seating problems. Get Carbide dies and a taper crimp die. Remember the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth so easy on the taper crimp. Now you can work up a load that your pistol will fall in love with. Good luck and good shooting!

 

[Colt45]

PS after you charge a tray of cases ALWAYS take a flashlight and inspect every case for the correct powder charge before seating your bullet.
This simple step takes but a few seconds and will locate a double charge or an empty case and save a lot of heartache.

 

[Old_Me]

I also like WW231 for 45 ACP it meters well and is very consistent. I tried many powders and settled on WW231. Accurate is also a good powder. Also casted my own bullets. I have shot a lot of Berry's bullets over the decades and find them excellent. You could also try Blue Bullets as well-high quality. 6% antimony minimum for hardness. 12% is better but hard to find as it is linotype lead either has VERY minimal leading. I was also fond of Sierra 180gr JHC absolutely loved that bullet. So accurate. When you buy any bullets make sure they are .451 diameter as .452 may cause seating problems. Get Carbide dies and a taper crimp die. Remember the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth so easy on the taper crimp. Now you can work up a load that your pistol will fall in love with. Good luck and good shooting!

yes, when i bought the reloading room from the RSO, he also included 2, one pound bottles of Bullseye powder, so i want to use that up before i buy another brand. someone else also recommended 231 as well.

PS after you charge a tray of cases ALWAYS take a flashlight and inspect every case for the correct powder charge before seating your bullet.
This simple step takes but a few seconds and will locate a double charge or an empty case and save a lot of heartache.

yes, i check each case for powder, and i check each cartridge for OAL. even though the Lee is a turrent press, i am loading 1 round at a time, just like the Dillon, 1 round at a time. i am in no rush to mass produce in large numbers.

i am also leaving a "small amount" of powder in the powder drop just below the glass line, so that the powder does not run out, to cause me to run a few rounds the next time, with maybe too little powder in each case.

you might be able to see the small amount of powder in the DIllon in this pic. the Lee, it's down in the red dispenser.

 

[youngolddude]

I don't let the powder measure go below 1/4, extra can always be poured back into the bottle. I have not tested the theory that a weighted column will dispense more powder than a lighter column, but it costs me nothing to ensure a minimum of powder in the tube.
231 is a good choice. I like powders that meter well and are reasonably efficient. Large charges deplete your stash quicker. I also like powders that work well for other calibers so I don't need to fool with multiple ones at a time. Ultimately, a powder should also produce accurate loads. Some manuals denote their accurate tested loads. Other factors that may play a role? Cost and availability. I don't shoot some powders because they are expensive compared with others. Lastly, a super-duper powder does me no good if I can't find it.

 

[Old_Me]

I don't let the powder measure go below 1/4, extra can always be poured back into the bottle. I have not tested the theory that a weighted column will dispense more powder than a lighter column, but it costs me nothing to ensure a minimum of powder in the tube.
231 is a good choice. I like powders that meter well and are reasonably efficient. Large charges deplete your stash quicker. I also like powders that work well for other calibers so I don't need to fool with multiple ones at a time. Ultimately, a powder should also produce accurate loads. Some manuals denote their accurate tested loads. Other factors that may play a role? Cost and availability. I don't shoot some powders because they are expensive compared with others. Lastly, a super-duper powder does me no good if I can't find it.

yeah, i think you are the 4th person to recommend 231. i will try that one, but as i said, i want to use up what i have. i'd hate to have more than 1 brand, and then never use it, in favor for another.

i'll also check quantities of say larger than 1 pound canisters, to save on costs.

regarding bullets, i checked a couple of online places, that sell a wide variety of coated, not necessarily FMJ's.. here too, i want to keep my costs down, since they are for plinking.

i have my name on like 4 very well known.......online suppliers for LPP's.....

 

[youngolddude]

My experience with having sites contact me hasn't worked. I manually searched and purchased primers and was never contacted they were in stock. Within minutes they were sold out. Not inclusive, but I search Brownell's, MidwayUSA and Natchez for primers. Bullets are trusted with these, but I also use SNSCasting, Bang and Clang, Desparado Bullets, Missouri Bullet Company, Chey-cast among others.

 

[Old_Me]

My experience with having sites contact me hasn't worked. I manually searched and purchased primers and was never contacted they were in stock. Within minutes they were sold out. Not inclusive, but I search Brownell's, MidwayUSA and Natchez for primers. Bullets are trusted with these, but I also use SNSCasting, Bang and Clang, Desparado Bullets, Missouri Bullet Company, Chey-cast among others.

i have actually tried several times for primers, at all hours of the day and night. there are 5 nights a week, i need to leave the house, about 11PM to 1 AM, and before i leave and when i get back? i check them again.....

so i been checking, but i could have missed a sale as well, since they get sucked up fast.

 

[youngolddude]

I don't recall the days, since everyday is the weekend when you're retired, but checked occasionally around 7-8:30 am. I have 6K large and 3K small on hand now and several thousand loaded rounds. I am not a hoarder, just laying in supply for the next year or so. I look more often when getting low as I only had a thousand large before finding more. They did cost me over $100/1K.

 

[Old_Me]

I don't recall the days, since everyday is the weekend when you're retired, but checked occasionally around 7-8:30 am. I have 6K large and 3K small on hand now and several thousand loaded rounds. I am not a hoarder, just laying in supply for the next year or so. I look more often when getting low as I only had a thousand large before finding more. They did cost me over $100/1K.

which for me, shooting 1 day or up to 3 days a week, i can still buy reloaded ammo, form the store where i buy my guns, and can get lead bullets at way below what i can get them for online.

he (the store owner) that reloads all calibers of ammo, can buy primers in bulk, at high prices, but recoups hos costs, when he sells his reloaded ammo.

me on the other hand, i'll "try my best" to buy a brick of primers at say $125 per brick (1,000) but not more than that, which i could never recoup the costs. i'll be sure to stay away from the $500 and up for that same brick.

 

[jumpinjoe]

I don't let the powder measure go below 1/4, extra can always be poured back into the bottle. I have not tested the theory that a weighted column will dispense more powder than a lighter column, but it costs me nothing to ensure a minimum of powder in the tube.
231 is a good choice. I like powders that meter well and are reasonably efficient. Large charges deplete your stash quicker. I also like powders that work well for other calibers so I don't need to fool with multiple ones at a time. Ultimately, a powder should also produce accurate loads. Some manuals denote their accurate tested loads. Other factors that may play a role? Cost and availability. I don't shoot some powders because they are expensive compared with others. Lastly, a super-duper powder does me no good if I can't find it.

I have done some column height/weight differences vs charge dropped and in every case I've not found enough difference to matter ............ providing the column is kept at or above about 1/4 full. And even after the column should drop below that 1/4 full level, the amount of difference in dropped charge weight is so minimal as to not change the valid charge. I've experimented with several different types of baffles just for the heck of it, some hot right off someone's 3D printer (in a variety of colors BTW), some made from drilling holes around a big, plastic medicine bottle cap that fits snuggly into the bottom of the powder hopper, and others of various and assorted imaginations.

I did find the biggest impact was with fine (small grained), spherical powders over larger grained extruded powders. But even with the finite testing I was able to do, the differences would always be less than most scales could measure.

What I ultimately came to conclusion of, is that as long as your loading equipment is up to par, properly adjusted, and the operator is competent in the operation of it, the charges dropped at the near empty hopper will be so close to the weight you started dropping with a full hopper that most won't have scales sensitive enough to show it. And neither will the results of the shooting show it.

 

[Old_Me]

i didn't get to shoot my reloaded .45 ammo. when i got to the range, there was 4 town SUV police cars. they go there on occasion for either qualifying a new/rookie, or re-qualifying a vet officer.

usually when this happens, the range doesn't allow anyone to enter....which i can understand. with 4 police cars, no telling how many actual officers were in the range, and they only have 12 lanes.

so hopefully, Monday of next week, i get to take my Tisas (made in Turkey if anyone did not know....hint..hint.. @KillerFord1977 )

and the new G-10 grips from GUUUN i got, which make that TISAS (MADE IN TURKEY) feel really good in my shooting hand.